RCH us made tubes?

[armillary]

A multi-page tour of RCA equipment and technology used to make tubes in the Harrison, New Jersey plant:
http://vintagetubeservices.com/page14.html

I searched but couldn't find any hits on RCA ever manufacturing tubes in Mound House, NV. It's not a big town. It's not even a wide place in the road. It's near Reno, Carson City and Lake Tahoe.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Ten days 'til April Fools.

So, that tube factory in Mound House NV, is it near the Moonlight Bunnyranch, Sagebrush Redlight Ranch, KitKat Guest Ranch, The Love Ranch, or Madame Kitty's Fantasy Ranch? No horsin' around - naaay - but I'll bet there's lotsa ridin' & a'ropin goin' on.

We have a correspondent in Sparks, not too far away. Hey, get your penicillin shot & have a closer look for us, OK? Mound House, 3 miles north of the state capital, Carson City. I'll bet you run into LOTS of politicians!

There IS a hookah lounge listed too. I'll let your imaginations run wild... How appropriate.

[renshen1957]

I am sure the price will come down once they get it together. However, they do seemed to be geared for the hi-fi market - the same folks who pay $500 for a knob or power cord so we shall see.

Imagine a new production 12AX7 that was actually decent… my mind races just thinking about it. And not doing business with China or Russia… now that would be great.

They have to get the prices down below NOS prices though - original new stock can be had for less even with todays drastically inflated prices.

Nevada is a great place to manufacture tubes - good business climate, good physical climate, and not too far from my home state

Maybe I can beta test some of those new 6L6's in one of my amps

Hi,

The Audiophile/Hi-Fi is the only market that can economically support new quality tube manufacture, be it either foreign or domestic, for that matter any market. The Hi-Fi crowd drives the market.

These are the individuals that layout $20k for a preamp and amp system without blinking an eye, and in the blink of another eye do so for same amount of cash to purchase the speakers. HiFi reviewers have been known to write about an $8k stereo system as a great value for the money (even if unheard at the time).

Therfore, tubes at $200 bucks is a pittance for a niche, target market, which can support a company.

However, the 6L6GC tube isn't the first tube that comes to mind for a HiFi power tube. KT66, EL34, 300B, KT88, and the occasional tube of the month.

Whether in the currently economically booming and prosperous Asia (where tube amp Hi Fi is popular), or audiophile deep pockets in the West, if not for the Golden Ear crowd, there wouldn't be any vacuum tube products except for Radar, Radio and TV transmitters, and Microwave Ovens.

Mike Matthews also caters to the HiFi crowd. Better hope that Mike Matthews lives to an older, old age, cause when the NOS and UOS run out, what is going to be left?

JJ, Tianjin Full Music, and Shuguang/Psvane are the only other players in this market, and wouldn't you know it, they target the Golden Ear Crowd, too. And the more costly TJ Full Music or Psvane 12AX7 are great tubes according to the Hi-Fi forums I belong to.

The Chinese Psvane have done a fine job of cloning WE 300B tubes (popular in China for SET amps) and more recently the Phillips/Mullard EL34 Metal bases. But I don't anyone here would spring for $359 for a quad until the remaining RFT EL34 dimple tops disappear. Angela.com used to sell these NOS, but not anymore. Short of Ebay sellers from Eastern Europe, those days are gone. A quad from Eastern Europe goes for about $200. A several a years ago, I could pick these up for half that.

Chinese manufacturers companies sell to all market segments. This includes tubes manufacturers. They will sell premium "oats" if you pay the price (and yes the HiFi grade of tubes have been favorably compared to the best of NOS tubes and in some cases preferred as superior), mediocre grade "oats" to those who want to purchase for less, and for the OEM tube amp manufacturers who sell their own line of house brand name tubes shipped with their tube amps, "oats after the oats have passed through the horse." Bugera to my experience was the worst tube I have ever come across as a stock tube.

And the last remnant of US tube manufacture, Western Electric alledgedly sells 300B tubes at a paltry $1200 per matched pair. That's only $2400 for a quad.

China and Russia still have engineers trained in tubes and tube construction, at least for their factories.

Even when I was in school 38 years ago, my friends studying to be electronics engineers said that tubes were briefly glossed over by the professors before they went immediately into solid state.

I remember a few years back (2008) when a group of individuals attempted to begin manufacture of Valves as a sideline business (targeted at the HiFi market) in the Blackburn factory in the UK. But all that tooling had been sent to Japan years before. The lot of them had experience in Cathode Ray tubes as ex-Phillips employees. Their main business was building cathodes for TV picture tubes for single customer, a company in China (that demanded a 30% reduction in price which sunk the company) and that left the UK valve manufacture nowhere to go but down the tubes.

The firm went out of business owing more than £12.4million to suppliers.

I hope these people do better.

As to consumer products (name brands), most companies jumped ship for transistors in the late 6The military left tubes along time ago.

The musical instrument market quite frankly doesn't support, hasn't supported tubes sales. Not back when the Beatles were hot and everyone had to get a guitar and amp, not later, and not now. Never.

The following is not meant to be a put down, just an acknowledgment of reliality. Sorry to say the musical instrument market is populated with average working musicians which by and large are too poor to buy a pot to pxss in, let alone barely able to buy the cheapo tubes from China relabeled OEM by one of the big Four to retube an amp. The week-end player, amateur musician, and even the 1% that make it to the top for groups that "made it," when added in don't buy sufficient quantities of tubes, and that includes all the guitar amp manufacturers, put together, world wide.

The current generation of iPhone/iPad using musicians seem more interested in Bluetooth enabled devices contained within guitar amps (ala Line 6) with more digital FXs than you can shake a stick at. Tone quality is secondary. What one can do with a tube fueled amp (expression, ect.) is not a consideration. And digital modeling amps, ect, have't come close to capturing the real thing, short of a caricature of a tube amp at best, at least to my ears.

I don't recall many younger members joining the amp garage forums, at least noot in droves to build tube amps which would require tubes.

Applying lasers and CNC machineswould be a logical application of new tech to old in principal, to bring costs down. But, the tube industry depends heavily involved in manual labor. Look at all the old videos here and there on the internet. I don't believe you can automate the old school mechanical assembly of tubes.

It's almost 30 years since the people who had the mechanical skills and knew how to make tubes (cathode chemical formulations, the alloys, etc.), are either dead, retired, or those who were very young when laid laid off when the factories closed from this type of work are unlikely to return.

And as to a skilled work force, unless they get immigration work visas for workers from China, Eastern Europe, or Russia, there is going to be a very long learning curve.

Apologies for the long post.

Best regards,

Steve

[martin manning]

The musical instrument market quite frankly doesn't support, hasn't supported tubes sales. Not back when the Beatles were hot and everyone had to get a guitar and amp, not later, and not now. Never.

I don't buy this and we've had this discussion before. How do you square that statement with this:

This statement from Kittleson's Vacuum Tube Valley site, although a bit dated, would say otherwise:

"GLASS ELECTRON TUBE MANUFACTURERS
Updated 12/21/05

We currently estimate that the demand for audio tubes is growing 10% to 20% per year. Audio tubes are over a $200+ million dollar industry in the USA and possibly $500+ million dollars worldwide. The most popular tube made now is the 12AX7, followed by the 6L6GC and EL34. About 90% of all glass audio tube production goes to guitar amp manufacturers."

I can't seem to find anything more up to date, not free of charge, anyway.

[renshen1957]

The musical instrument market quite frankly doesn't support, hasn't supported tubes sales. Not back when the Beatles were hot and everyone had to get a guitar and amp, not later, and not now. Never.

I don't buy this and we've had this discussion before. How do you square that statement with this:

This statement from Kittleson's Vacuum Tube Valley site, although a bit dated, would say otherwise:

"GLASS ELECTRON TUBE MANUFACTURERS
Updated 12/21/05

We currently estimate that the demand for audio tubes is growing 10% to 20% per year. Audio tubes are over a $200+ million dollar industry in the USA and possibly $500+ million dollars worldwide. The most popular tube made now is the 12AX7, followed by the 6L6GC and EL34. About 90% of all glass audio tube production goes to guitar amp manufacturers."

Hi,

I have disagreed with Vacuum Tube Valley, before, and here is why I disagree to some extent, now. Musical Instrument MFGs might cover the costs, but I still maintain the profits from HiFi keep the companies running.

Before the fall of the Iron and Bamboo curtains, only the communist countries made tubes in any volume. Cheap labour in the worker's "paradise," alledged distrust of technology (insuffient capital and GDP to invest in new technologies), alledged resistance to nuclear pulses over SS (also, a hoax to cover the lack of technological innovations, the Trinity Test site equipment first experienced the same susceptibility to the pulse with all tube equipment), and restrictions on technology transfers are why tubes still existed.

The dissolution of the USSR starts in 1989. At this time the Marshall distributor wanted 6550 tubes in his amps because of EL34 failures. By mid 1990, only the Military version of a Russian Tube sold as a 5881 (but with specs similar to a 6L6GC) had any semblance of reliability. Fortunately this has changed over the years, but tube failures are still common.

2005 was a banner year for Musical instrument sales and Guitar sales increases. But it was a long time ago.

Take the largest Guitar retailer in the US. Guitar Center.

Year Units % Change $ Retail % Sales Avg Price
2005 1,648,595 23.3% $923,522,000 21.2% $560

This trend did not follow.

The industry sales increased for units of guitars from 2005 to 2011 but the average price of guitars (both acoustic and electric) decreased annually for sales from a high in 2005 to 2010 until finally increased starting in 2011.

The sales from $922,280,000 at price per unit $529 in 2006 to $839,000,000 in 2010 at price per unit $353. From 2010 onward, the average sale price has only increased from $20-30 per a year. If this trend continues (no guarantee), then 2005 levels of Guitar price per units won't equal 2005 until 2017 Plus, I haven't adjusted for inflation and USD purchasing power. Which would extend the curve further.

Take the largest Guitar retailer in the US. Guitar Center, owned by Bain Capital

In a 2013 industry Census, this is for sales of guitars:


Year Units % Change $ Retail % Sales Avg Price
2013 2,472,000- .70% $1,070,244,000 7.0% $433
2012 2,489,390-. 90% $1,000,676,130 11.4% $403

Again, I haven't adjust the above for inflation. The numbers look worse, if I did that.

The demographics (I do not know how many if any of the acoustics are electro-acoustics or if electro-acoustic is filed under electric from the data):

Type Units
Acoustics
Under $100 390,028
$101 to $200 410,030
$201 to $350 181,628
$351 to $500 40,003
$501 to $1,000 90,010
$1,001 to $1,500 226,001
Over $1,501 25,200
Total 1,362,900
Electrics Units
Under $100 198,494
$101 to $200 380,537
$201 to $350 311,037
$351 to $600 97,659
$601 to $1,000 61,037
$1,001 to $1,250 24,415
$1251 to $1,600 13,185
$1,601 to $2,000 12,207
$2,001 to $3,000 11,229
Total 1,109,800

The Majority of the sales (by volume) are in the beginner market, traditionally those players who purchase either new solid state ams and/or eventually used tube amps. In either case these purchases do not drive the tube amp markets manufactures demand for OEM tubes.

Fender had gross sales (for the entire company) of $173,769,000 in 2012 (and since Fender sold its soul to Bain Capital) with a Net income of $1,860,000 (Source NASDAQ) and only slightly more assets than liabilites at $369,769,000 to $336,237,000. Can't pay down those debts with the income of $1.8 million any time soon.

Fender claims to have sales world wide at $700 million in 2012. And maybe they do the money stays off-shore for tax reasons. I would guess the ratios would be similar for electric guitars, the bulk being in the beginner to lower sales market, the SS and Used tube amp. Maybe some of the Fender Champion 600 sales (two tube market) amps get sold.

Fender has been playing the right notes in Asia, 64% of its sales coming from OEM manufactured guitars in Asia, and 20% of its sales come from emerging markets. Both aren't known for buying tube amps.

Here are the financials:

Sales in Millions world wide.

$701

Net profit

$19
Net cash/(debt)

($235)
Net tangible assets

($7)

Book value of equity

$32

Fair market value of equity

$300

Yamaha has almost 5 times the sales at 3.4 billion, but again this is for all musical instruments sold, Pianos, Saxophones, PA equipement etc., which also would include Guitars and Guitar amps. How many US or European musicians have the "jones" to purchase a Yamaha tube amp?

Marshalls estimated revenue for year end 2010 was $36.2 million, the amount of money an executive is paid in a Fortune 500 company yearly.
How much that breaks down into cabs, etc., but for the sake of argument, lets sale that was all from tube amps. I would hazard a guess that Marshall sells more if not equal to Fender in Tube amps sales. But tubes are only a small cost of materials when compared to the wholesale cost Transformers, Cabinets, Chassis and most of all, labour and other overhead.

But back to tube amps:

In 2005, the trend was that tube amps were increasing in sales,

Mike Matthews upped his production from 40,000 tubes per month in 1999 to 170,000 per month in 2005 or circa 2 million tubes. If the majority of his sales were from OEM then we can guess he is selling about 5 million USD+ to the Guitar trade based on the information below.

(Your argument in this case would be valid.)

"According to the New York Times, ExpoPul is estimated to supply as much as two-thirds of the vacuum tubes used in musical instrument applications worldwide. “And if the standard of living were higher in the
places where tubes are made, there would be no tubes.” That’s
because, Morrison said, major amp makers buy in quantity, and that depresses pricing. They’re just cheap because they can be,” he said, pointing out that large companies, which order in lots of 100,000 at a
time, refuse to pay more than $2.50 per 6L6 tube, a price he said would make manufacturing in the West unsustainable.""

The above article stated that Matthews company had annual sales of $7 million dollars. That would equate to 2.8 million tubes sold at $2.50 to Peavey, Fender, Marshall, Vox, et al. It doesn't match the tube sales above of 170,000 tubes per month.

Of course the company also sold other tubes from transmitting tubes, radar tubes, possibly micro wave tubes and retail sales to both HiFi and tube amp vendors (resellers), too. I doubt these were sold at $2.50 a tube.

Let's go on the assumption that guitar amps are the major business for volume to just barely cover overhead, but not sufficient to generate a sizable profit (such as EH FX pedals generate).

And here is a clue, the trends that MM follows according to his product introduction do not follow the guitar market. If we take the lead from Matthews company, which tubes did he introduce and reintroduce from 2005?

Besides purchasing brand names (Mullard, also famous for Hi-Fi) here is one company he reintroduced Gold Lion. And the flagship tubes KT88 and KT-66. Yes the tube was popular in early Marshalls and the Blues Breaker, but the KT66 were more popular in Williamson and Leak amps. The Gold Lion 12AX7 was reintroduced, never used in a Guitar amp, but used in HiFi's and sold originally to the Hi Fi market.

As to the new offerings, of tubes:

The reissue of 7868 tube, popular in Fisher Amps and Hi Fi steroes (but used by only a random guitar amps not used now in current guitar amp manufacture).

Tung Sol 6550 Russian clone.

This occured just after the time the NOS Tung Sol 6550 had been "discovered" by the HiFi market. Many of the Golden Ear crowd went ape over the tube, and demand exceeded the supply, consequently the heretofore inexpensive tubes NOS became scarcer than hen's teeth as the new in thing for HiFi tubes. (Thank you Vacuum Valley)

Other tubes were reissued as reproductions of the original which had become popular in the HiFi realm (Thank you again Vacuum Valley): The 5751, which led to the introduction of the Rusky Tung Sol 5751 (popular as a 12AX7 sub, but only the original is the goto tube for SRV tone in guitar world). What next? The NOS Tung Sol 5881 and afterwards the NOS 6L6G (big bulbous tube) became HiFi flavours of the month (guess who let the cat out of the bag, down in the Valley). And New Sensor came out with reissures of both tubes.

I used to buy the NOS versions of all the above tubes until popularity dried up the supply and drove the prices sky high. Even red bank tubes were cheap at hamfests, but VV made sure that these tubes also reached the stratosphere.

The NOS 7581 became popular with Guitar players as a sub for 6L6GC, so the reintroduction (if it is a true 7581 tube). This is an exception that proves the rule. MM follows trends in both Guitar and HiFi. But the trends he favours more frequently is HiFi based buying habits.

New Sensor previously offered the Sovtek7591XYZ (eXamine Your Zipper), but it wasn't a real 7591 tube, just a repinned 6L6 sold as a 7591. It sold for those poor individual with amps that used the tube: Gibson, Ampeg, Supro, and Guild. (Hammond and Lowery Organs used the 7591 tube, too, but there owners don't burn through tubes.) The tube required all sorts of amp modification to use, it wouldn't even run in a Cathode Biased guitar amp.

A few tube stereo owners tried the Sovtek 7591 tube which earned a negative reputation and a Black Eye for New Sensor.

The EH 7591A was eventually produced, true 7591 electrically but oversized in physical proportions to the original, more commonly used by Fisher, McIntosh, Sansui, Heathkit, Scott, Eico which come to mind.

The offerings from New Sensor of KT120 KT150 target the HiFi KT88 market. The KT88 wasn't used much after the Marshall Major until Dr. Z brought his amp.

The New Sensor line includes a 300B for the SET aficionados plus other tubes.

New Sensor sells a number of tubes on the website online, again, many of these are oriented to HiFi amps at their website at HiFi prices. Guitars are just an afterthough. Another source of revenue.

Then there is JJ. This company that reintroduced the KT77, the 12DW7, a correct size if a little less than the proper Wattage 7591, ECC88, the ECC99, a higher head room EL34L, 7027, a non plate cap octal EL-509, 300B, 2A3 as well as the KT66 and KT88. Most of these are HiFi tubes except the EL-509 which is anybody's guess.

JJ did release the guitar oriented EL844, again the exception to the rule.

Both JJ and New Sensor released the 6CA7 beam tetrode version of the EL34, which falls 50 50 between HiFi and Guitar. However, Shuguang released a 6CA7 treasure for their 50 years mark in the business and there premium lines.

To JJ and New Sensor's credit they did introduce 6V6 tubes that can withstand Deluxe Reverb plate voltages.

The majority of the tubes produced in China surviving tube factories are to the bulk tubes market, the premium lines cater to the High HiFi market.

The competition is to produce Western Electric Power Triodes is fierce. Also the 12A_7 preamp tubes, and HiFi targeted versions of KT66, KT88, and EL34, plus octal tubes popular in the HiFi, 6SN7 or a 6SN7 in a CV181 package, 6SL7 plus a few tubes you most likely never came across cater to the Esoteric, the key words of HiFi.

That's not to say that Valve Art or Sino don't produce some interesting tubes, WE350B (a 6L6G type tube), EL156 (an octal version of the 10 pin tube TFK produced used for cutting masters for LPs), or plate cap tubes such as the 6146B, 811A, 575B, 812A, 807. None of these are Guitar amp oriented.

I am afraid the tube industry is a two legged beast, (HiFi and Guitar); one cannot walk without the other. But oh those prices in HiFi.

Best regards,

Steve

[martin manning]

Still not convinced. I can find several large outlets selling new production tube guitar amps locally (a couple of Guitar Centers and a Sam Ash), plus a couple of local music companies with multiple store locations. There is only one high-end audio dealer, and I would bet that tube amps are a niche within a niche for them. Searching on the web I get similar results.

[talbany]

This is a great conversation!!
I'll add..Around the 2012 time frame I visited quite a few Music stores around the country (about 30 states) as my wife travels extensively..I usually made it a point to visit some of the music stores in town to talk about my amps..Some were privately owned which usually carried roughly 50% tube amps to SS..(This included used amps which were mostly tube).. The larger chains such as Sam Ash (who carried our Fralin Model) Guitar Center as most of these at that time were about 1/3 tube amps..Mostly Marshalls,Fenders,Crate, and few Boutique amps but were still a small part and were always dominated by modeling and or some other kind of SS type amp..The usual response from the larger retailers were we don't sell near the amount of tube amps as we do SS and as far as the boutique amp go the response was ALWAYS the same.. "See that XX Boutique amp over there I can't give it away it's been here over a year"

Of coarse when you get to some of the larger City's like LA,NY,Nashville,Chicago you would usually find a better selection of amps that used tubes but there were still always dominated by ones that did not have tubes..(accept for the one in LA on Sunset strip)

The smaller Mom and Pop stores sometimes sold 50/50 tube and SS amps but on a vastly smaller scale..
After visiting all of those stores and talking to all the different vendors there I couldn't help thinking that Tube amps were a specialty item and destined for extinction..All of this really started after the economy took a dump in 07 after the housing market crash mostly..I know our sales plummeted as did most other boutique amp companies..The ones that were just getting started went out of business! ..


BTW..Many vendors don't stock amps,what they do is order one or 2 after they get a sale on the internet...Unless you are selling large quantities (in the hundreds) per year to these large vendors your really not making that much money (on a WELL MADE high quality amp) when all is said and done and you finally get your money as they want these amps (CHEAP!!!)

Tony

[ToneMerc]

This is a great conversation!!
I'll add..Around the 2012 time frame I visited quite a few Music stores around the country (about 30 states) as my wife travels extensively..I usually made it a point to visit some of the music stores in town to talk about my amps..Some were privately owned which usually carried roughly 50% tube amps to SS..(This included used amps which were mostly tube).. The larger chains such as Sam Ash (who carried our Fralin Model) Guitar Center as most of these at that time were about 1/3 tube amps..Mostly Marshalls,Fenders and few Boutique amps but were still a small part and were always dominated by modeling and or some other kind of SS type amp..The usual response from the larger retailers were we don't sell near the amount of tube amps as we do SS and as far as the boutique amp go the response was ALWAYS the same.. "See that XX Boutique amp over there I can't give it away it's been here over a year"

Of coarse when you get to some of the larger City's like LA,NY,Nashville, you would usually find a better selection of amps that used tubes but there were still always dominated by ones that did not have tubes..(accetp for the one in LA on Sunset strip)

The smaller Mom and Pop stores sometimes sold 50/50 tube and SS amps but on a vastly smaller scale..
After visiting all of those stores and talking to all the different vendors there I couldn't help thinking that Tube amps were a specialty item and destined for extinction..All of this really started after the economy took a dump in 07 after the housing market crash mostly..I know our sales plummeted as did most other boutique amp companies..The ones that were just getting started went out of business!

BTW..Many vendors don't stock amps,what they do is order one or 2 after they get a sale on the internet...Unless you are selling large quantities (in the hundreds) per year to these large vendors your really not making that much money when all is said and done and you finally get your money as they want these amps (CHEAP!!!)

Tony

Tony, your post just reaffirms what I've stated in posts before about the Walmart price mentality and how producing tubes of this genre is not viable business period.

TM

[talbany]

This is a great conversation!!
I'll add..Around the 2012 time frame I visited quite a few Music stores around the country (about 30 states) as my wife travels extensively..I usually made it a point to visit some of the music stores in town to talk about my amps..Some were privately owned which usually carried roughly 50% tube amps to SS..(This included used amps which were mostly tube).. The larger chains such as Sam Ash (who carried our Fralin Model) Guitar Center as most of these at that time were about 1/3 tube amps..Mostly Marshalls,Fenders and few Boutique amps but were still a small part and were always dominated by modeling and or some other kind of SS type amp..The usual response from the larger retailers were we don't sell near the amount of tube amps as we do SS and as far as the boutique amp go the response was ALWAYS the same.. "See that XX Boutique amp over there I can't give it away it's been here over a year"

Of coarse when you get to some of the larger City's like LA,NY,Nashville, you would usually find a better selection of amps that used tubes but there were still always dominated by ones that did not have tubes..(accetp for the one in LA on Sunset strip)

The smaller Mom and Pop stores sometimes sold 50/50 tube and SS amps but on a vastly smaller scale..
After visiting all of those stores and talking to all the different vendors there I couldn't help thinking that Tube amps were a specialty item and destined for extinction..All of this really started after the economy took a dump in 07 after the housing market crash mostly..I know our sales plummeted as did most other boutique amp companies..The ones that were just getting started went out of business!

BTW..Many vendors don't stock amps,what they do is order one or 2 after they get a sale on the internet...Unless you are selling large quantities (in the hundreds) per year to these large vendors your really not making that much money when all is said and done and you finally get your money as they want these amps (CHEAP!!!)

Tony

Tony, your post just reaffirms what I've stated in posts before about the Walmart price mentality and how producing tubes of this genre is not viable business period.

TM

Mike..Your RIGHT!
The other point worth mentioning is most guitar players rarely change tubes..You will find as long as the amp works (regardless of how it sounds) they leave the tubes in there until they fail!!..HIFI guy's change them much more often after the sound has degraded,so they go through far more tubes..Most of the older Fenders (60's 70's) that come in still have the original pre amp tubes in them..We are no doubt rougher on tubes especially in combos but the general public by in large couldn't tell you if a tube is going microphonic or if the power tubes in there amps are on there last leg!..As long as there favorite overdrive pedal works they are IMO for the most part oblivious

Tony

[martin manning]

There's a spectrum of tube-awareness... How many guitar players buy multiple sets of tubes looking for tonal nirvana?
How many of those old Fenders that you see with old tubes in them have just been sitting unused somewhere for 15-20 years?

There's a market for Hi-Fi tubes and a market for guitar amp tubes, and there is money to be made in both. Maybe a useful analogy is automobiles: There are people who will buy a Mercedes or a Jaguar, but those products do not drive car production. It's the high-volume producers like Ford, GM, Toyota, etc. that are examined when assessing the overall health of the auto industry.

[Phil_S]

Interesting discussion. We are just emerging from a serious economic recession. I want to assert that guitars and guitar amps drop out early in an economic downturn because they are not essential goods. Like all other manufacturing in an economic downturn, a big question is, how long can you hold on, and will it be long enough to whither the storm? I don't think we'll know the answer for another 5-10 years. Surely, some damage has been done. We can only hope an uptick in the marketplace creates new opportunities that are seized by those will the capital and a vision. Dare I say it, we need another Aspen Pittman -like person on the scene.

Meanwhile, snap up those NOS 6n2P and 6p3c tubes from Russia before the iron curtain drops again! Better to have mediocre tubes than none at all!

[Synchu]

Russian 6p3s-ev (ev is the military designation) is a fine glass. Very durable and able to withstand much more voltage than most of the current production tubes ( 495V plate/in the below mentioned Small Special), besides the conservative rating of 250V in their datasheet
I use it both in a Dumble #102 and Small Special clones and prefer them to any current production and NOS JAN Phillips 7581.

I would love to try this new ones, but by the time they get to EU they'll cost at least 300$ equivalent and I still (probably not the case in few years from now, but...) can get very good NOS glass for that much money


Niki

[NickC]

........ We are just emerging from a serious economic recession ...........

With all due respect, we are not emerging from economic recession. The economy is getting worse. It's going to get much, much worse. There is not the will or discipline in the electorate, nor the political class, to correct course and steer the ship away from the rocks.

[LeftyStrat]

"Liz Hare and her son have formed RCH labs with the purchase of the old RCA tube factory in Mound House Nevada...

Here's the address:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/45+Pp ... 8c!6m1!1e1

Apparently the 'factory' was built in 2007.

[talbany]

How many guitar players buy multiple sets of tubes looking for tonal nirvana?

Martin
Our shop was located in Waldorf Md.. 10min from the DC line and about 15 min from the VA line..In a very well populated area with many who work for the Govt and have money, even in a downturn..We did repair work for several shops in the area and 1 in Waldorf that was bigger than any Guitar Center I've been too..In that specific area there were basically 4 types of people that came in that made up my demographic,in about a 10 year time frame

There were the people that absolutely had no clue as to how tubes affected their tone and they didn't care less!..As long as the amp worked!!..These were the hobby players or maybe their kid played guitar..This made up about 70% of our customers

The 2nd demographic were the players...The guy's that used their amps!..Some were actually working in bands, and knew about how tubes affected their tone asked all kinds of questions about old tubes..This group was young 20-27 years and could never seem to have the money... They were having a tough enough time paying for their repairs and keep the amp running...This made up around 15% of our customers...

The other demographic were the more well known acts we had built and maintained amps for or the guy's were in well known bands around the area and country.. This was a unique bunch..These players didn't feel the need to load their amps with expensive tubes and have them bounce down the road in the back of a semi as they just wanted something reliable..These guy's could for the most part make anything sound good so they could care less in their road gear..This made up about 8-10% of our customers..This really surprised me because I thought they would be the ones that wanted the older tubes?

The last were the gear guy's.. These guy's knew about how tubes effected their sound and actually cared..Some of these guy's actually bought tubes from us but most of the time they were well stocked and search ebay for the great deals that came up.. This was maybe 5% of our demographic..These guy's were very rare!

I always kept some Old tubes around in case anyone wanted to load their amps with some nice tubes..It was a very rare occasion (in 10 years) that I would sell any of them!!..Believe me I thought the same thing as you but for from what I see about 90% of the guitar players I've worked with just don't seem to really care enough or have the expendable income!!

There were quite a few customers that couldn't believe how expensive tubes were just using the standard JJ,EH,TAD etc..etc..And we are very reasonable with our pricing..It's not that surprising that tube sales have grown over the past 8 years or so with all the boutique amp companies as well as amp kits that have come to market..

Tony