2013 12AX7 Tube Comparison

[renshen1957]

Oh.. renshen1957, the tube that cracked, did the socket have or use a shield base, or base with the mounting for a tube shield.
Quite a few have reported this happening.
It appears to be mostly since the tubes are fatter in size they fit very snug in the sockets,and the shield base comes in contact with the tube. Seems this is what causes most of them to crack. More simple, they new tubes are fatter an fit to tight in the old sockets. the heating and cooling I think is what cause them to crack.

And i'm sure many places that sell tubes also test tubes,and they can all have different standards they go by. But I also hate to see someone spend 400.00 on a matched set or whatever tested, and 3 close,and one way off from being matched. Or a NOS what ever brand preamp tube that is so noisey its unuseable. Sorry for the long winded explanation.

Hi,

The tubes did not have tube sockets, in the PI position (in a feed back loop) and the amp goes no higher than 5 (too loud).

I have gone to NOS European Tubes, NOS Tesla (pre-jj), EI, anything from Poland, and RFT for Guitar Amps, Tesla ECC83S (made on the Telefunken equipment with Tele advisers) for Hi Fi V1 tubes, but these are now about $90 per tube.

Best regards,

Renshen

[Firestorm]

Just for curiosity where can I read up on the Reflektor "land grab", thanks!

This was reported six or seven years ago in the Times and other places. A group with possibly extra-legal ties wanted the land for development and tried to muscle him out. Haven't seen anything on how it was resolved, but the timing makes it look like the global economic meltdown made development less attractive. But the property is still prime real estate, so maybe there is still interest.

[renshen1957]

I think New Sensor have determined to let the distributors do the flogging. He has an awful lot of brands based on the same template. Wouldn't do to push one too hard yourself. Interestingly, the Svetlana branded New Sensor products are still not for sale in the EU, so the original SED is still a viable legal entity. I wonder if plans are afoot for New Sensor to acquire the St. Petersburg plant. It would make a lot of sense if Reflektor is still the target of a land grab.

Hi,

The results of the New Sensor vs. CEDist

http://www.stereophile.com/news/022304svetlana

Performing Due Diligence for my electronics company, I stumbled on to the EI website a ways back which stated that contrary to rumor (Ebay sellers that the mfg plant was completely destroyed, so hurry up and purchase the last of the Smooth Plate tubes built on Telefunken equipment) EI claimed they were open for business and the plant hadn't bee destroyed by bombs.

However, when I was contemplating buying tubes in bulk from EI to test and sell, I found references New Sensor had acquired EI.

However, this was all found on the internet, and you know how reliable the skuttlebutt is. My time being limited and the demands of business required by attention, so that avenue was never ventured into.

Still would like some clarification as to the land grab or real estate reference.

Best regards,

Steve

PS Companies registering Trademarks of overseas products (in the US) that do not belong to them is common in many industries. Horphag, Int TM'd the term Pycnogenol for a Pine bark extract, however the researcher who discovered the phytochemical used the term generically for both Grape Seed and Pine bark derived products. The USPTO doesn't care about anything other than collecting licensing fees.

[Leo_Gnardo]

EI claimed they were open for business and the plant hadn't bee destroyed by bombs. However, when I was contemplating buying tubes in bulk from EI to test and sell, I found references New Sensor had acquired EI. However, this was all found on the internet, and you know how reliable the skuttlebutt is. My time being limited and the demands of business required by attention, so that avenue was never ventured into.

- - TM'd the term Pycnogenol for a Pine bark extract, however the researcher who discovered the phytochemical used the term generically for both Grape Seed and Pine bark derived products. The USPTO doesn't care about anything other than collecting licensing fees.

Big thanks to you renshen & Firestorm too. Veddy interesting what goes on. Will New Sensor acquire EVERYTHING? They are looking like the pac-man of the tube biz. Well if good tubes such as EI proved they could make 20-25 years back come out of it, OK with me, I'll forgive 'em. But not holding my breath.

To clarify your post with the Carolina illustrations renshen, are you favoring those big-plate =C= or the current 12AX7's sold labeled as Svetlana by New Sensor? Moochas garcias sombrero, one more time.

And if I need pine bark - I just gnaw on some nearby trees.

[bluesky636]

Just speaking for myself, and having tried and used some of those,i would not believe anything on there.. I sent all of the ones I tried back. The ones I like they don't sell.

I fail to understand your apparent criticism of the results presented in the referenced comparison. Are you claiming the data presented is false (seems like a reasonable comparison of tubes sold by AES based on tests performed by the author and described in the paper) or is it just that it didn't include your favorite tube? I find no mention of the testing done by Carolina Tube Store nor can I even find a website for them except for their E-Bay store. For the record, for new production tubes I prefer JJ as sold and tested by http://www.eurotubes.com/.

This is from the chart they have.

This graph is based on the average gain and noise measured from different tube brands using the same number of samples for each brand. It should not be assumed that every single 12AX7 from a specific brand will match its place on this graph.

First I only posted the Carolina because it was the first pic of a Svetlana 12ax7 tube. One day I need to make a video of some of this stuff. its much easier to show and listen,than explain.
But first yes these are the newer type, not to be compared at all to the old first run winged C, which were about the worst ever..

The test said same number of tubes were used for each brand.

Lets just say, you bought 10 tubes of the same brand. One of the main things is, what amp, what circuit. Meaning, some amps the tube may work fine, in another amp it may not.
The express V1 section, an 18watt marshall in the trem channel. many other higher gain amps. Or if you need one for a Cathode follower circuit. Some new tubes data,will tell you not to be used in a CF circuit. too high of voltage on the cathode. Or look at say the new "labeled" 12AT7 from various brands. Then look at a real NOS 12AT7. Also try and put one in an amp, and read the voltages. Then try a NOS tube and compare. The new 12AT plates look nothing like the old 12AT tubes. It looks more like the new 12AT are 12AX that didn't measure up to spec,so they call them a 12AT. Who knows for sure, i'm just saying they don't look or act like the old NOS tubes.

You may get many tubes to work in low gain amps. but higher ones, you may find they are too microphonic, or noisey or lots of hum,or hiss.

Oh.. renshen1957, the tube that cracked, did the socket have or use a shield base, or base with the mounting for a tube shield.
Quite a few have reported this happening.
It appears to be mostly since the tubes are fatter in size they fit very snug in the sockets,and the shield base comes in contact with the tube. Seems this is what causes most of them to crack. More simple, they new tubes are fatter an fit to tight in the old sockets. the heating and cooling I think is what cause them to crack.


But back to the question, I usually buy 10 tubes, and go through those. I found some that to me, were non useable. And that is before even plugging in a guitar. Just too much noise,and crap. Usually out of most tube brands, if you bought 10 tubes, you may get 2 that are excelant, 3 a step below that, then down from there,a couple may be ok for a low gain amp, then you may have 2 that needs to be in the trash can or unuseable. Very rare you get 10 all unuseable. And maybe i'm to picky. I like a lot of tubes, many NOS are great,and some still not too expensive.

And i'm sure many places that sell tubes also test tubes,and they can all have different standards they go by. But I also hate to see someone spend 400.00 on a matched set or whatever tested, and 3 close,and one way off from being matched. Or a NOS what ever brand preamp tube that is so noisey its unuseable. Sorry for the long winded explanation.

Interesting explanation, but totally irrelevant in my opinion regarding the purpose of the comparison. The AES comparison was of tubes. Not how they will perform in a particular circuit. I agree, a particular tube may test great but suck in one circuit and work OK in another. That is an entirely different test. Your original response to the op "Just speaking for myself, and having tried and used some of those, i would not believe anything on there. I sent all of the ones I tried back. The ones I like they don't sell." ignores the purpose of the comparison and levies criteria on the test that was not intended.

[renshen1957]

EI claimed they were open for business and the plant hadn't bee destroyed by bombs. However, when I was contemplating buying tubes in bulk from EI to test and sell, I found references New Sensor had acquired EI. However, this was all found on the internet, and you know how reliable the skuttlebutt is. My time being limited and the demands of business required by attention, so that avenue was never ventured into.

- - TM'd the term Pycnogenol for a Pine bark extract, however the researcher who discovered the phytochemical used the term generically for both Grape Seed and Pine bark derived products. The USPTO doesn't care about anything other than collecting licensing fees.

Big thanks to you renshen & Firestorm too. Veddy interesting what goes on. Will New Sensor acquire EVERYTHING? They are looking like the pac-man of the tube biz. Well if good tubes such as EI proved they could make 20-25 years back come out of it, OK with me, I'll forgive 'em. But not holding my breath.

To clarify your post with the Carolina illustrations renshen, are you favoring those big-plate =C= or the current 12AX7's sold labeled as Svetlana by New Sensor? Moochas garcias sombrero, one more time.

And if I need pine bark - I just gnaw on some nearby trees.

Hi,

The golden ear boys wanted the SED old school tubes not the newer New Sensor tunes. Which was the opposite opinions held by some guitarists at the time.

Best regards,

Steve

PS Make sure to chew on either Canadian pines or Norwegian Maritime Pines.

"Isn't good? Norwegian Wood.

[Richie]

hmmm maybe I missed something, but if you go to the bottom of the test thing, it shows what preamp they were tested in.. then these two things the noise test, and listening test,but it shows what amp they played them in to compare. I was just trying to say, the test they speak of, the tubes I got that they speak of in those test, would never make it to the listening test or playing listening test or comparing to another brand test. Because they were horrible,and way too much noise when you turned the amp on. I was hoping they would be good, but they weren't. You'd think of 10 new tubes one would be useable.Thats what I was trying to get across. I also think that test is on youtube,or one similar.

The Noise Test Setup
Each tube sample was again tested in the same preamp circuit and an oscilloscope was connected to the amplifier output to monitor the amplitude of the voltage spike produced by tapping on the tube's glass envelope. The average voltage spike from each tube's samples was then calculated and used for comparison.
The Listening Test Setup
A custom 12AX7 switching box was constructed to allow for a quick switch comparison of six tubes at a time while plugged into the V1 socket of a Marshall JCM800 2203 guitar amplifier. A separate filament transformer was used on the switching box to simultaneously heat all six comparison tube filaments without overheating the amplifier's power transformer. A shielded cable was constructed to plug into the amplifier's V1 socket and transfer its pin 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 and 8 connections to one tube socket at a time in the switching box. Listening tests were then conducted while playing guitar and switching between the tubes at various amplifier control settings to come up with tonal descriptions for each tube.
[/quote]

[Leo_Gnardo]

The golden ear boys wanted the SED old school tubes not the newer New Sensor tunes. Which was the opposite opinions held by some guitarists at the time. Best regards, Steve PS Make sure to chew on either Canadian pines or Norwegian Maritime Pines. "Isn't good? Norwegian Wood."

OK, I'll have to score some of the NS "Svets" just for a listen. And I have an enormous nearly 100 ft Norwegian Pine just downslope from my house. Hope it's the Maritime variety. Gonna look it up. Move aside bugs & birds... Need a soundtrack, add Kottke "Chewing Pine" Thanks again!

[bluesky636]

hmmm maybe I missed something, but if you go to the bottom of the test thing, it shows what preamp they were tested in.. then these two things the noise test, and listening test,but it shows what amp they played them in to compare. I was just trying to say, the test they speak of, the tubes I got that they speak of in those test, would never make it to the listening test or playing listening test or comparing to another brand test. Because they were horrible,and way too much noise when you turned the amp on. I was hoping they would be good, but they weren't. You'd think of 10 new tubes one would be useable.Thats what I was trying to get across. I also think that test is on youtube,or one similar.

The Noise Test Setup
Each tube sample was again tested in the same preamp circuit and an oscilloscope was connected to the amplifier output to monitor the amplitude of the voltage spike produced by tapping on the tube's glass envelope. The average voltage spike from each tube's samples was then calculated and used for comparison.
The Listening Test Setup
A custom 12AX7 switching box was constructed to allow for a quick switch comparison of six tubes at a time while plugged into the V1 socket of a Marshall JCM800 2203 guitar amplifier. A separate filament transformer was used on the switching box to simultaneously heat all six comparison tube filaments without overheating the amplifier's power transformer. A shielded cable was constructed to plug into the amplifier's V1 socket and transfer its pin 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 and 8 connections to one tube socket at a time in the switching box. Listening tests were then conducted while playing guitar and switching between the tubes at various amplifier control settings to come up with tonal descriptions for each tube.

That's my point. The preamp and amp that the tubes were tested in were used to provide a common baseline test environment for each tube. This allows one to compare each tube to the other under the same set of conditions instead of testing the tubes in different amps. Would they perform differently in other amps? Quite probably. They may be better or worse. But as preformed by AES, you are able to easily compare the tubes under the same conditions.

[ampdoc1]

I didn't mean to start a controversy,..just ran across the info, and as it had not been published here (and I wasn't aware of the cdist file) I thought this might be valuable info the community would like to see.

For myself, I always buy Ruby Tubes. I know they probably buy from the same sources, but I've never had a problem of any kind (bad, noisy, etc) with the tubes I've purchased.

a'doc1

[Firestorm]

There are just not that many separate entities manufacturing vacuum tubes (and keeping track of who's who is beginning to feel like it must have for the Feds tracking the Gotti family). There's two in Russia, with one of them out of the receiving tube business it seems, JJ (plus a handful of specialised plants that do audiophile stuff like 300B and some very arcane tubes), Shuguang and psvane (which used to source stuff from Shuguang, but have acquired their own plant). There are a few really, really small guys doing who knows what. So no matter what name is on the tube, it originated in Saratov, or JJ, or Shuguang or psvane.

The question is (as it always was), does the brand stand for something? Telefunken GZ34s were made by Mullard and maybe just a tad "nicer" than the Mullard branded ones. Amperex tubes in certain years might have come from any number of Philips plants. But everything passed some meaningful kind of QC.

Nowadays, I fear, as long as a tube passes current, it's for sale.

[Richie]

I didn't mean to start a controversy,..just ran across the info, and as it had not been published here (and I wasn't aware of the cdist file) I thought this might be valuable info the community would like to see.

For myself, I always buy Ruby Tubes. I know they probably buy from the same sources, but I've never had a problem of any kind (bad, noisy, etc) with the tubes I've purchased.

a'doc1

I thought it was just a good discussion..

[bluesky636]

I didn't mean to start a controversy,..just ran across the info, and as it had not been published here (and I wasn't aware of the cdist file) I thought this might be valuable info the community would like to see.

For myself, I always buy Ruby Tubes. I know they probably buy from the same sources, but I've never had a problem of any kind (bad, noisy, etc) with the tubes I've purchased.

a'doc1

I thought it was just a good discussion..

Agreed.

[renshen1957]

There are just not that many separate entities manufacturing vacuum tubes (and keeping track of who's who is beginning to feel like it must have for the Feds tracking the Gotti family). There's two in Russia, with one of them out of the receiving tube business it seems, JJ (plus a handful of specialised plants that do audiophile stuff like 300B and some very arcane tubes), Shuguang and psvane (which used to source stuff from Shuguang, but have acquired their own plant). There are a few really, really small guys doing who knows what. So no matter what name is on the tube, it originated in Saratov, or JJ, or Shuguang or psvane.

The question is (as it always was), does the brand stand for something? Telefunken GZ34s were made by Mullard and maybe just a tad "nicer" than the Mullard branded ones. Amperex tubes in certain years might have come from any number of Philips plants. But everything passed some meaningful kind of QC.

Nowadays, I fear, as long as a tube passes current, it's for sale.

Hi,

The typical Vacuum tube is built to price point. This is true of many products imported from China.

Not to be picky, TJ Full Music isn't associated with Shuguang or Psvane. Similar to Psvane and the former Shuguang Treasure division, their niche market is Audiophile Tubes.

I agree that many private labels source from either Shuguang/Psvane or TJ Full Music.

There used to be GuiGuang Factory near Guandong (Canton) established in 1960′s in the city of Liuzhou as military factory for south west region of China. It was closed permanently in 2000. In 2006, a group of investors bought out all the equipment of Guiguang and moved them to just outside of Guangzhou in Guangdong province, hoping to capitalize on the highly booming hi-fi tubes market. from 2006 until it was bought out by Psvane in 2011. New Sensor isn't the only one that's doing it.

"Tianjin Full Music was established in 1998, and it was located in the No.3 Haimen Road, Hebei District, Tienjin, China. The Manager of the factory is Mr. Liu Zhensheng who graduated from the vacuum tube technology of TsinghuaUniversity, he had worked at the development research and management as well as manufacture of the vacuum tube for many years in the Beijing vacuum tube factory (think NOS Military tubes), and accumulated the rich experiences in this area. The design and technique of all of products –vacuum tubes are from himself personally, and the company has owned the technical personals in the enrich professional knowledge , the well-trained and skillful workers."

The company produces 6SL7 and 6SN7 as well as 12ax7, 12AT7, 12AU7, and the Number Tubes that Western Electric used to make.

Their 12AX7 is based on the CV4004 tubes of the UK. The tube doesn't look like the Shuguang (typical Chinese 12AX7 tube).

Shuguang is in Hunan, China, total separate entity in a different provence.

http://www.shuguangelec.com/en/honor.asp

Best regards,

Steve,

PS I have been asked on a number of occasions by overseas Chinese business men why American companies always want to purchase the cheapest, lowest quality manufactured materials from China, (the word would be if translated would be equivalent to "Shit.").

I explain that the US is not Japan (the hardest consumers to please were quality is concerned), and the average American is barely getting by, (99% aren't rich) and the American consumer is rather gutless about complaining or returning substandard tools, nails, etc because it's cheaper to buy a new POS tool, nail, toaster, etc.

Also American Corporations are more concerned about ringing dividends for their stock holders rather than having pride in producing (no longer) or offering a quality product in the US. The CEO, Presidents, and VPs want to be paid enormous amounts of money in salaries compared to their employees. (They shake their heads, but all Americans are rich!).

Not that Protoc Silex Toaster when they were made in the US were any good, 3 broke under warranty, two of these caused kitchen fires.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I didn't mean to start a controversy,..just ran across the info, and as it had not been published here (and I wasn't aware of the cdist file) I thought this might be valuable info the community would like to see.

For myself, I always buy Ruby Tubes. I know they probably buy from the same sources, but I've never had a problem of any kind (bad, noisy, etc) with the tubes I've purchased.

a'doc1

I thought it was just a good discussion..

Agreed.

Good all around gents. I'm also a long time Magic/Ruby customer but have to keep eyes open for "second sources." CE has worked out OK but always looking for other good ones. Too many times I've been disappointed by finding the "same old stuff" for higher prices.