Need opinion on warranty

[Gaz]

Brent, I agree, and to avoid the red face, I'm just paying for the whole thing. Probably about $250 in the end. On the bright side the person really loves the amp.

[brentm]

Brent, I agree, and to avoid the red face, I'm just paying for the whole thing. Probably about $250 in the end. On the bright side the person really loves the amp.

That's cool man. I always appreciate a stand up guy when I do business. It's how I strive to conduct myself as well. I've been burned a couple times, but in the end, I know I did my best to conduct myself with the utmost integrity.

[Phil_S]

Anybody know how you would calculate an HT fuse size?

No, but I go with what I see on many Marshall schematics, which is a 0.5A fast blo on the CT. I suppose you could go down to 0.3A or 0.25A. It's my understanding that no current should flow through the CT unless there is some sort of problem, and that is why you want a low value fast blow fuse.

[Phil_S]

Brent, I agree, and to avoid the red face, I'm just paying for the whole thing. Probably about $250 in the end. On the bright side the person really loves the amp.

$250 may feel like a lot of money, but, in the larger scheme of things is isn't that much. I think is always pays to take the high road even when it hurts. Good decision. Congratulations on doing the clear-headed thing.

[rp]

Perhaps I should start a new thread, but I have a general question about fusing the PTs secondaries: Do i size the fuses the same way I would in the B+ line? I assumed so, and am using a 1 amp slo-blo in one leg coming into a bridge recto like I mentioned before. This arrangement is suggested on Merlin's site.

I always use a fuse after the rectifier and I'm curious too about fusing both legs of the sec and what's the correct way to do this and the fuse type. BTW, I've put these inside and external, if you are selling the amp make it external. IME the HT fuses tend to stress out and blow on start up for no good reason. PITA to have to take the amp apart. HT fuses seem to be useless with SS rectification, they just fail too often. When I run my 5F6a clone with an SS plug in thingy I'll put a SB fuse in the HT just to save money on fuses. Defeats the purpose of the HT fuse but what can you do? Maybe that's why Leo didn't use them.

[Gaz]

For those of you that remember this "fascinating," I decided to suck it up and pay for the PT, power tubes, and repair. I ended up loosing money on the amp, but felt good because it "sounded awesome" and "he was so happy to no not be playing that 900 anymore!"

Well, I just got a call saying "It did the same thing." Truth is, it didn't smoke, but the sound cut out. I'm guessing the new B+ fuse the tech installed pooped for whatever reason because he's not hearing any hiss, buzz whatever, and the power light is still on, and the tubes are lighting up normally.

I can tell he's stressed because it happened in the middle of a show, and he basically asks if he can send if back for a new one. Well, I explain that not only do I have a new one, but that I've already lost money on the amp taking care of the repair, and that I didn't work on it last, so I have no idea if the amp was really taken care of, or if something the tech did caused the problem.

I told him I'd take responsibility for any other workmanship issues, but that I can't be responsible for the tubes or anything the tech did. That's FAIR, right?!

He said he can take it by to the tech in a couple weeks when he gets back, but needs the amp in a hurry again and can't afford to retube it. I already wrote the tech to see what he has to say...

He's got this notion that it's an unreliable amp, and that it will always be such. It's essentially a Plexi clone with stock Magnetic Components transformers. Nothing crazy at all. I try to explain to him that there HAS to be an electrical explanation, and that there's not a phantom in the amp that will forever be causing mischief!

So what you guys think? I've never had to deal with this before.

So bummed.

[ToneMerc]

For those of you that remember this "fascinating," I decided to suck it up and pay for the PT, power tubes, and repair. I ended up loosing money on the amp, but felt good because it "sounded awesome" and "he was so happy to no not be playing that 900 anymore!"

Well, I just got a call saying "It did the same thing." Truth is, it didn't smoke, but the sound cut out. I'm guessing the new B+ fuse the tech installed pooped for whatever reason because he's not hearing any hiss, buzz whatever, and the power light is still on, and the tubes are lighting up normally.

I can tell he's stressed because it happened in the middle of a show, and he basically asks if he can send if back for a new one. Well, I explain that not only do I have a new one, but that I've already lost money on the amp taking care of the repair, and that I didn't work on it last, so I have no idea if the amp was really taken care of, or if something the tech did caused the problem.

I told him I'd take responsibility for any other workmanship issues, but that I can't be responsible for the tubes or anything the tech did. That's FAIR, right?!

He said he can take it by to the tech in a couple weeks when he gets back, but needs the amp in a hurry again and can't afford to retube it. I already wrote the tech to see what he has to say...

He's got this notion that it's an unreliable amp, and that it will always be such. It's essentially a Plexi clone with stock Magnetic Components transformers. Nothing crazy at all. I try to explain to him that there HAS to be an electrical explanation, and that there's not a phantom in the amp that will forever be causing mischief!

So what you guys think? I've never had to deal with this before.

So bummed.

Just the facts based on your postings.

1. There was no written or oral warranty.

2. You decided to pay for repair and parts.

3. You sold an amp which later failed on two separate occasions.

4. You told the client that you would be responsible for any other workmanship issues, outside of the original repair.

5. You admitted that amp has to have an electrical explanation for the problem.

6. You haven't done a root cause analysis so you are guessing at what could be the problem.

My opinion:

1. You sat a precedent at #4 which sat yourself up for this. Just because it's a straight clone doesn't rule out quality of workmanship or materials selection or quality issues that are at the root of the issue.

What's the commonality here, where both power transformers from MCI?

2. The client's perception is his reality and the reality is, the amp is truly unreliable. You further planted the seed by admitting that the amp has to have an electrical explanation. It wouldn't be unreasonable for the client to assume that both issues are related and that he might have a lemon.

Nevertheless; it may be something as simple as fast blow B+ fuse, but because of all of the above you now have yourself in a bind. I would have him to install a SB B+fuse and see if it happens again. If it does, I would be prepared to make some type of partial refund towards a settlement.

Something tells me this isn't going away.

TM

[vibratoking]

+1 on what ToneMerc said.

He's got this notion that it's an unreliable amp, and that it will always be such.

I think it's more than a notion. You provided him with an unreliable amp. And he is right, it will always be unreliable until it is fixed properly. The fix may be simple or difficult, but I think you have to look at it yourself to know for sure. This illustrates why selling/providing amps to other people can be harder than it appears. For one, ask Fuchs or Suhr. I know they both go to great length and expense to provide customer satisfaction. Although, I think they usually charge for most fixes and upgrades. Perhaps one of them can tell you how they would approach this situation.

[selloutrr]

I sold someone an amp I'd built for myself, and after I couple months the PT died quite catastrophically. Smoke! It turns out two tubes failed, and took out the PT. The one mains fuse wasn't quick enough

There was no warranty agreement with this person, but I want to be nice and replace the PT, and I should've probably added an HT fuse anyway... But should I pay for a new tube set? They were used, and even new tubes are generally warrantied for 3-6 months.

What do yo guy think? What would you do?

If it was within a year (12 months) of purchase. I'd cover it all. It's a hard lesson learned, but negative word of mouth and friendship are usually not worth a $200.
regarding the tubes. were they the same tubes that you installed in the amplifier? if so, yes those are also your problem. If they are aftermarket. I would offer to reinstall the tubes the amp was shipped with and offer to contact the manufacture on the owners behalf for a warranty replacement of the dead tubes. It's not a sure thing the tubes will be replaced, but it shows you stand by the product and want to help make things right without totally losing your ass.
while you have the amp in the shop, add addition safety measures. flyback diodes and fuse. also test the mains fuse to make sure it's not to big. you may want to bring it down to trip faster.


Based on #4 unless you take the time to figure it out you are (to put it blunt) FUCKED this amp will be your bench baby for years to come. until you are so frustrated the friendship is strained and you buy it back.

[Phil_S]

These sorts of decisions are difficult because of the amount of money involved. In general, this is the problem with being a non-commercial entity then behaving like one -- making an amp without intent to sell it, and then selling it. Anyway, that's hindsight, which is always 20-20. The question at hand is what to do about this situation.

If this were my problem and I had the money, I'd refund the purchase price and take the amp back. You've got multiple issues, both technical and perceptual. Make the buyer whole if you can do it. Then, he doesn't have much to bitch about because you were willing to stand by the product even though you sold it "as is." As others have pointed out, you've now done/said a number of things that have probably modified the "as is" condition in the eyes of the buyer.

The issue of the other tech is a side issue that has now gotten out of hand. Not all techs are equal. I image some are quite good, very capable, able to do a correct diagnosis, clever problem solving, etc. At the other end of the spectrum, you might have a guy who maybe knows how to use the basic tools of the trade to do basic repairs and setup, but who lacks the required training and experience to be a really fine tech. You can't control this and you can't control it when he says to his/your customer the amp is unreliable. Now it's been said and it is perceptual fact whether you like it or and whether it is really true or not. This is another reason to recall the item.

If you can't see your way to repurchasing the amp, then somehow you've got to get it back to diagnose and fix it. Even after you do that, you will "forever" be obligated to fix it for free unless you set limits. To limit "forever" tell the customer that you'll guarantee it for 90 days and after that he's got to pay for repairs.

You are in a though spot. I hope you are able to work this out in an amicable way.

[Gaz]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I contacted the tech who said he can look at it when the buyer is back in his area in December. Depending on what he says, I'll go from there I suppose.

Right now, my impression is that the guy thinks the original problem wasn't fixed, and that he's willing to give it another shot to see what the tech says. . The guy who worked on it is very experienced as well, so I'm willing as well.

I did find out he installed a FB fuse, but I don't know if I wanna pin it down to that, of couse. The tubes were replaced with the PT.


It just sucks because I've already lost money on the amp, and don't have the money to buy it back.

More later...