What is the difference between placing an effect or series of effects at the input v.s. placing it at the effects loop?
Is there any difference when the signal at the effects loop is high gain and harmonically rich v.s. clean signal?
silverfox.
What difference: Effects placement
Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal
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The Ballzz
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:22 pm
- Location: Las Vegas, NV
Re: What difference: Effects placement
Well Sir,
I've seen you state in other threads that you are not much of a player and I'm assuming that you are looking for an answer from a "player's" perspective. Well, if that's thae case, you just opened yourself up to a back & forth earful!
The real answers are truly multi faceted and require looking at (in depth) different types of effects. Bear in mind that the way I play utilizes semi-low wattage amps cranked to get a combination of preamp/power amp/overdrive/distortion/tone.
Let us first consider echo/delay, my favorite & most serious addiction! Be aware that really great delay/echo sounds are the most difficult to achieve and require careful consideration as to where other effects are placed, either before or after the delay/echo in the signal chain:
A) When playing an overdriven solo (or nice grindy rhythm) with a fair amount of overdrive & distortion, we want the repeat (especially a long delay, think of Pink floyd) to be an absolute duplicate of the non-delayed/non-echoed sound that is coming from, or at the very least, going to the speaker(s). That first begs the question of where that overdriven sound is derived. Is it from the guitar? Probably not! Is it from the foot pedals? Maybe (I don't use pedals, but many do)! Is it from the preamp? Maybe! Is it from the power section? Maybe! The real answer is likely a combination of "all of the above!"
B) Now, the absolute, best way to accomplish great delay sounds is to have a dedicated sound engineer apply this at the mixing console. The unfortunate reality is that few small bands can afford to keep a good engineer on retainer who is hip to synchronizing echo cues with the music! The key is in putting that capability into the player's control. Keep in mind here that all other effects (except MAYBE reverb, that's a dicey conundrum) will probably want to be before the delay/echo. Delay wants to be a direct duplicate of the guitarist's "COMPLETE" sound/tone!
C) With a high wattage amp with a master volume, (of most sorts) turned down, this is fairly easy, as most overdrive is likely achieved before and through the preamp. A guy who runs his amp "cranked" for his tone complicates matters a bit. A "cranked" sound requires the input of the delay/echo to receive a signal that is representative of the signal goin to the speaker. Hmmmm??? You can't put an effects loop on the speaker output, right! Or can you?
D) YOU BETCHA CAN! It's called a wet/dry rig! This type of rig utilizes a means of deriving a line level signal (with circuitry to emulate what a speaker is doing to the sound) off of the speaker output of the greatest sounding amp in the universe and feeding it into the echo/delay and then sending that delay/echo output to another amp, without preamp/tone controls/shaping & only a level control to drive another speaker set.
Most other effects can be handled fairly simply, but delay (done right) can truly be a bitch! Many folks use a multiple chain of effects and don't realize that the delay being "out of place" is what is causing their main effects dilemma!
I am in the process of a newly innovative design (hopefully with some assistance here) that should revolutionize the guitar amp industry in a way not witnessed since the introduction of "on board" reverb! I want to provide a tube amp product that is "all amps to all players!" Impossible? I say BULLSHIRT!
Think About This & Get Back To Me,
Gene
I've seen you state in other threads that you are not much of a player and I'm assuming that you are looking for an answer from a "player's" perspective. Well, if that's thae case, you just opened yourself up to a back & forth earful!
The real answers are truly multi faceted and require looking at (in depth) different types of effects. Bear in mind that the way I play utilizes semi-low wattage amps cranked to get a combination of preamp/power amp/overdrive/distortion/tone.Let us first consider echo/delay, my favorite & most serious addiction! Be aware that really great delay/echo sounds are the most difficult to achieve and require careful consideration as to where other effects are placed, either before or after the delay/echo in the signal chain:
A) When playing an overdriven solo (or nice grindy rhythm) with a fair amount of overdrive & distortion, we want the repeat (especially a long delay, think of Pink floyd) to be an absolute duplicate of the non-delayed/non-echoed sound that is coming from, or at the very least, going to the speaker(s). That first begs the question of where that overdriven sound is derived. Is it from the guitar? Probably not! Is it from the foot pedals? Maybe (I don't use pedals, but many do)! Is it from the preamp? Maybe! Is it from the power section? Maybe! The real answer is likely a combination of "all of the above!"
B) Now, the absolute, best way to accomplish great delay sounds is to have a dedicated sound engineer apply this at the mixing console. The unfortunate reality is that few small bands can afford to keep a good engineer on retainer who is hip to synchronizing echo cues with the music! The key is in putting that capability into the player's control. Keep in mind here that all other effects (except MAYBE reverb, that's a dicey conundrum) will probably want to be before the delay/echo. Delay wants to be a direct duplicate of the guitarist's "COMPLETE" sound/tone!
C) With a high wattage amp with a master volume, (of most sorts) turned down, this is fairly easy, as most overdrive is likely achieved before and through the preamp. A guy who runs his amp "cranked" for his tone complicates matters a bit. A "cranked" sound requires the input of the delay/echo to receive a signal that is representative of the signal goin to the speaker. Hmmmm??? You can't put an effects loop on the speaker output, right! Or can you?
D) YOU BETCHA CAN! It's called a wet/dry rig! This type of rig utilizes a means of deriving a line level signal (with circuitry to emulate what a speaker is doing to the sound) off of the speaker output of the greatest sounding amp in the universe and feeding it into the echo/delay and then sending that delay/echo output to another amp, without preamp/tone controls/shaping & only a level control to drive another speaker set.
Most other effects can be handled fairly simply, but delay (done right) can truly be a bitch! Many folks use a multiple chain of effects and don't realize that the delay being "out of place" is what is causing their main effects dilemma!
I am in the process of a newly innovative design (hopefully with some assistance here) that should revolutionize the guitar amp industry in a way not witnessed since the introduction of "on board" reverb! I want to provide a tube amp product that is "all amps to all players!" Impossible? I say BULLSHIRT!
Think About This & Get Back To Me,
Gene
Well first I have to clarify
"I've seen you state in other threads that you are not much of a player" Ha! I don't know where I would have said that. Anyway, I play nearly daily and I'm pretty good. Okay, thanks for the informative response. Due to the many styles I play, (for my own listening pleasure and not professionally) I really like the variety I get from an amp emulator. In one sense most of the issues I would normally encounter with individual effects pedals don't arise since the emulator has the effects built in and the chain is configurable. Like you I primarily use Delay, Reverb and occasionally I do use Chorus.
My questions arises due to the fact I recently built my latest tube amp for the purpose of adding just a little more gritty edge and alot more if needed, to the emulators models. This leads me to ponder if the distortion from the preamp would be better employed prior to or after the emulator in the chain. The emulator handles pedals well so maybe placing it in an effects loop will work. I haven't gotten to putting an effects loop in yet and that was part of the inquiry also.
Now, for your idea on a revolutionary amp, and I understand the interest in non-disclosure- I can't image your thinking of the "Two amps in one chassis design". I have seen those and believe that is the best design so far. So far, as I know nothing about your project. In the past I've run stereo and that works well enough for a home situation. Two separately designed and built amp outputs is, like you mentioned very nice and I've done that a time or two with separate amps.
Well like I mentioned, thanks for your insightful response, I'm pondering it.
silverfox.
My questions arises due to the fact I recently built my latest tube amp for the purpose of adding just a little more gritty edge and alot more if needed, to the emulators models. This leads me to ponder if the distortion from the preamp would be better employed prior to or after the emulator in the chain. The emulator handles pedals well so maybe placing it in an effects loop will work. I haven't gotten to putting an effects loop in yet and that was part of the inquiry also.
Now, for your idea on a revolutionary amp, and I understand the interest in non-disclosure- I can't image your thinking of the "Two amps in one chassis design". I have seen those and believe that is the best design so far. So far, as I know nothing about your project. In the past I've run stereo and that works well enough for a home situation. Two separately designed and built amp outputs is, like you mentioned very nice and I've done that a time or two with separate amps.
Well like I mentioned, thanks for your insightful response, I'm pondering it.
silverfox.
Re: What difference: Effects placement
Innovation is cool and I say good luck, but to be all amps to all players?The Ballzz wrote: I want to provide a tube amp product that is "all amps to all players!" Impossible? I say BULLSHIRT!
Leo couldn't do it...Jim couldn't do it...Randall couldn't do it...Alexander couldn't do it...Mike couldn't do it...Ken couldn't do it...etc...etc...
But if they could :
Weight=1000lbs
Years R&D=10
Unit Production Cost including R&D recovery=$100,000.00
Unit Retail Price (Assuming 5 year investment return plus 10%profit margin adjusted for inflation)=$250,000.00
P.S. Don't get in a wad over this post. Just a reality check. If you can backup that statement then I'll be wanting one.
If it don't get hot and glow, I don't want it !
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The Ballzz
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:22 pm
- Location: Las Vegas, NV
Re: What difference: Effects placement
SilverFox,
Sorry if I had you confused with someone else. No offense intended about not being a player!
RWood,
Your comments are exactly want I'm hoping to hear, especially the last line.
Thanks 4 The Comments Guys,
Gene
Sorry if I had you confused with someone else. No offense intended about not being a player!
RWood,
Your comments are exactly want I'm hoping to hear, especially the last line.
Thanks 4 The Comments Guys,
Gene
Re: What difference: Effects placement
Where does tremolo fit into the fx chain?
Near the beginning as with a foot pedal?
In the middle as with an overdrive pedal preceding the tremolo but before any delay?
Or last as with a bias wiggle PA style tremolo?
Near the beginning as with a foot pedal?
In the middle as with an overdrive pedal preceding the tremolo but before any delay?
Or last as with a bias wiggle PA style tremolo?
No problem found
The Ballzz
SilverFox,
Sorry if I had you confused with someone else. No offense intended about not being a player!
No offense taken.
fox.
SilverFox,
Sorry if I had you confused with someone else. No offense intended about not being a player!
No offense taken.
fox.
Re: What difference: Effects placement
Brewdude,
You can use it eberywhere:
At the beginning, with a soft attenuation, to modulate the overdrive you obtain later, or with an hard square attenuation, for specific effects.
In the middle, to send the tremoloed signal to the delays.
After the delays, to modulate the amplitude of the whole sound.
It depends on what you want to obtain.
You can use it eberywhere:
At the beginning, with a soft attenuation, to modulate the overdrive you obtain later, or with an hard square attenuation, for specific effects.
In the middle, to send the tremoloed signal to the delays.
After the delays, to modulate the amplitude of the whole sound.
It depends on what you want to obtain.