poweramp-driven "liquid" distortion.

[Edoardo]

(quoted myself by mistake, see previous post)

[Colossal]

Edoardo,

I think to find the best fit for you, you need to post some very specific examples of what you mean by liquid distortion.

To me, some players that I like that have what I would call a liquid distortion tone are:

John Petrucci/Dream Theater
Allan Holdsworth
Guthrie Govan

The context in which I take liquid distortion is a seemingly effortless, endlessly sustaining lead tone that has high midrange content, even harmonics that bloom an octave above the fundamental, and excellent clarity with tight, even low end.

Here is a good example of this (listen all the way though for many examples of the cascading "waterfall" liquid legato/fusion tone)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPEewaalik

An important point to note is an amp will only take you so far, you've got to have the chops to get the sound out of the amp. The players I quoted above have flawless technique and so the clarity is really coming from their fingers and the lack of noise from their technique is transferred to the amp.

For now, I would obsess less on technical points like push-pull, fixed bias, etc and find specific examples of tones you like by your heroes. Then study their rigs. Never forget that they will sound like themselves through almost any rig because the tone comes from their technique, but their amp in your hands should give you a starting point.

As previously mentioned, power amp distortion is a source for liquid distortion tone so look at those amps that can be pushed. Reeltarded suggested the Mesa Mark IV and true enough both John Petrucci and Allan Holdsworth currently play or have played Mesa Boogie amps. Guthrie Govan formerly played Cornford amps and now Victory amps, both of which were designed by the same guy. A modded Marshall will get you there as well.

[Edoardo]

Thanks colossal.

I am sorry "liquid" can mean everything and nothing.

that guitar-hero tones you posted... No, they are not my thing. It may be heresy, but to my ears, those heroes/virtuosos/shredders ... Petrucci, Gowan, Malmsteen, Vai.... they all add the same kind of "colour" to the sound. These "modern" tones are very popular and my problem is that I don't want to sound like that. I don't know what it is, too many amps make you sound like that to my ears.



I was meaning really mainstream/classic overdriven tones


http://youtu.be/CY85PSxn0PI

http://youtu.be/zXdbQ4l2M9U

http://youtu.be/H6Jg1M-2vTk

http://youtu.be/QcUxrpIwuQ4

http://youtu.be/lsuY24KPq38?t=4m52s

http://youtu.be/7Zt_W2VwHx4?t=2m6s




Yes, lots of brightness and mids. And a fuzzy bass.
I'm aware that I'll have to add a compressor or a fuzzy stompbox at times to get anywhere close.

I don't need distortion to mask any fretting shortcomings, I just want a deep overdriven tone, avoiding those shredders'/virtuosos' "colour".


This is a demo that "opened" my ears a few months ago

Gain set to 1, volume set to 11

http://youtu.be/guSL1zjYhiA?t=4m0s


Thanks a lot!

[Edoardo]

P.S. I did NOT ask about that autobias/trimmed bias thing cause I think it'd make a tonal difference.

Since I do NOT know what it means, I just wanted to know if it has something to do with the tubes/circuit overdriving capabilities and thus with their
life expectancy, not with their "sound"!
(cause I just came to know not all amps are meant to be cranked)


Thanks again

[NickC]

^^^

I echo the suggestion above about the illustrious Fender Deluxe Reverb (blackface or silverface AB165 circuit, both are good starting points). Add some choice pedals (delay, overdrive, compressor, etc) for a versatile, cost effective, small footprint gig-rig. You can experiment with pedals as funds allow and build a satisfying arsenal that will serve you well. For larger gigs where the 22 watts isn't enough, put a SM57 on it and run to the FOH.

[Edoardo]

^^^

I echo the suggestion above about the illustrious Fender Deluxe Reverb (blackface or silverface AB165 circuit, both are good starting points). Add some choice pedals (delay, overdrive, compressor, etc) for a versatile, cost effective, small footprint gig-rig. You can experiment with pedals as funds allow and build a satisfying arsenal that will serve you well. For larger gigs where the 22 watts isn't enough, put a SM57 on it and run to the FOH.

Thanks a lot... since you speak about a AB165 circuit, I guess I can add a bassman to my range of choiches if I found any??

[NickC]

^^^

I echo the suggestion above about the illustrious Fender Deluxe Reverb (blackface or silverface AB165 circuit, both are good starting points). Add some choice pedals (delay, overdrive, compressor, etc) for a versatile, cost effective, small footprint gig-rig. You can experiment with pedals as funds allow and build a satisfying arsenal that will serve you well. For larger gigs where the 22 watts isn't enough, put a SM57 on it and run to the FOH.

Thanks a lot... since you speak about a AB165 circuit, I guess I can add a bassman to my range of choiches if I found any??

Sorry ..... my mistake (I'm in the midst of building a modified one-channel Bassman and have it on my mind) ..... I meant AB763 Fender Deluxe Reverb. Apologies for the mistake.

However, the Bassman AA864 or AB165 is also a fine amp. Bassman has more power (50 watts), and in this case that might work against you. The advantage of the Deluxe Reverb is you can dime it (turn it all the way up) without going (as) deaf. A dimed Bassman can sound fantastic, just before the bar-owner throws you out.

By the way, Jim Marshall "borrowed" the Fender Bassman circuit as a starting point in designing his magnificent JTM45 amp (which is a beautiful sounding amplifier).

Good luck with your quest; may the tone be with you!

[Colossal]

Ok yes, "liquid" can mean many things!

The tones you posted really are classic rock tones for sure, but they are not what I think of when I think of liquid distortion. More mildly overdrive classic rock. You can still hear the openness and clarity but with tube overdrive. The video of the Epiphone 30 you posted, I would characterize that as chimey and punchy. I did not particularly like the overdrive characteristic of it as it is very muddy and indistinct to me; but that's only my personal preference. There is no right or wrong with Tone! What I think you are hearing and liking with the Epiphone vidoe is what is referred to as touch sensitivity. This is where the amp responds to your picking attack and the amp can transition from a clean tone to overdrive depending on how hard you pick or strum; that was happening in the Epiphone video.

As far as the virtuoso players that I referenced are concerned , I know what you mean in the way that you say they all have the same basic colour to their sound. This is because of the high gain foundation they use tends to flatten (compress) the spectrum, giving it a very even quality. What I am referring to as liquidy sustaining distortion comes from that compression and midranged focused part of the sound. Allan Holdsworth gets an absolutely fluid legato horn-like tone without the appearance of distortion. He is very avant garde and perhaps not easy to listen to for most people but to my ear his tone and playing is sublime.

Another amp you might want to check out is the Marshall 1974X 18W amp (2 x EL84 power tubes). It is incredibly touch sensitive, has the most amazing natural output distortion sound (sounds like early ZZ Top, Zeppelin, and AC/DC) but also a clear chime and clangy clean with the volume rolled back.

If you don't like that amp, listen to Reeltarded and others here and go with a classic rock amp to get your heroes' tone. Clapton is all about Fender tone. Hendrix is Marshall.

[Edoardo]

Sorry ..... my mistake (I'm in the midst of building a modified one-channel Bassman and have it on my mind) ..... I meant AB763 Fender Deluxe Reverb. Apologies for the mistake.

However, the Bassman AA864 or AB165 is also a fine amp. Bassman has more power (50 watts), and in this case that might work against you. The advantage of the Deluxe Reverb is you can dime it (turn it all the way up) without going (as) deaf. A dimed Bassman can sound fantastic, just before the bar-owner throws you out.

By the way, Jim Marshall "borrowed" the Fender Bassman circuit as a starting point in designing his magnificent JTM45 amp (which is a beautiful sounding amplifier).

Good luck with your quest; may the tone be with you!

Thanks a lot.

Therefore I'll definitely be looking for a blackface, fender or clone, 20 to whatever watts... and maybe buy a power attenuator.



I've also been reading around about this:

Can I change, in a preamp section, a pair of stock 12AX7 with a pair of 12AT7...? what shall I expect?

[martin manning]

This may not be "it" but the Tweed Deluxe is another point of reference: http://youtube.com/watch?v=W-PPHkKjdHs& ... -PPHkKjdHs The last clip is similar to the kind of distortion in the Clapton video. Also note how much variation there is between the different guitars and pickup selections.

[Edoardo]

Ok yes, "liquid" can mean many things!

The tones you posted really are classic rock tones for sure, but they are not what I think of when I think of liquid distortion. More mildly overdrive classic rock. You can still hear the openness and clarity but with tube overdrive. The video of the Epiphone 30 you posted, I would characterize that as chimey and punchy. I did not particularly like the overdrive characteristic of it as it is very muddy and indistinct to me; but that's only my personal preference. There is no right or wrong with Tone! What I think you are hearing and liking with the Epiphone vidoe is what is referred to as touch sensitivity. This is where the amp responds to your picking attack and the amp can transition from a clean tone to overdrive depending on how hard you pick or strum; that was happening in the Epiphone video.

As far as the virtuoso players that I referenced are concerned , I know what you mean in the way that you say they all have the same basic colour to their sound. This is because of the high gain foundation they use tends to flatten (compress) the spectrum, giving it a very even quality. What I am referring to as liquidy sustaining distortion comes from that compression and midranged focused part of the sound. Allan Holdsworth gets an absolutely fluid legato horn-like tone without the appearance of distortion. He is very avant garde and perhaps not easy to listen to for most people but to my ear his tone and playing is sublime.

thanks a lot for these explanations!

Another amp you might want to check out is the Marshall 1974X 18W amp (2 x EL84 power tubes). It is incredibly touch sensitive, has the most amazing natural output distortion sound (sounds like early ZZ Top, Zeppelin, and AC/DC) but also a clear chime and clangy clean with the volume rolled back.
If you don't like that amp,

alas... tone is subjective. I love these classics but can't stand playing with that amount of crunch. Muddy yes, fuzzy yes, but crunchy... no. So no, I don't think I'm gonna like this amp.

listen to Reeltarded and others here and go with a classic rock amp to get your heroes' tone. Clapton is all about Fender tone. Hendrix is Marshall.

Yeah I know: Clapton is Fender, Hendrix is Marshall, Gilmour is HiWatt and Santana is Mesa.
But to my ears, their fatter tones all have something in common. That's what's driving me mad

[ampgeek]

Swapping 12AT7s for 12AX7s will reduce gain (less crunchy and overdriven) in that stage.

Using 5751 tubes (directly swapable with 12AX7) will do the same but to a lesser degree.

Cheers,
Dave O.

[cbass]

I have never liked 12at7's in a gain stage ay7s av7's and 5751's are lower gain subs sound better to me than 12at7s

[Edoardo]

Swapping 12AT7s for 12AX7s will reduce gain (less crunchy and overdriven) in that stage.

Using 5751 tubes (directly swapable with 12AX7) will do the same but to a lesser degree.

Cheers,
Dave O.

thanks... But will the power amp keep overdriving as usual, only less total output? (less sound pressure?)

The blackface clone I posted about earlier... the manual says... "Power amp volume knob". Is that even possible?
Or is it just another "master volume" (preamp volume)?

In other words, may having lower gain preamp tubes make the poweramp go into distortion more quickly?

[Colossal]

In other words, may having lower gain preamp tubes make the poweramp go into distortion more quickly?

No, not really. By lowering the gain, you will decrease the amplitude of the signal going to the power amp. The sound will be cleaner (provided this is how the amp is designed of course). Power amp distortion is generated by sending a signal large enough to make the output tubes draw grid current and enhanced by the degree to which the primary impedance is mismatched to the ideal load, if any. This last part will be more techno-jargon to you but it is what it is.

If you don't like the crunch of the 18W 1974 Marshall circuit (those are EL84 output tubes and they overdrive very easily), I think you want something with 6L6 power tubes like a Fender. Turn up the midrange, and put a big clean boost in front of it. Instant sing without crunch.