voltage divider for screen grids

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Colossal
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Colossal »

surfsup wrote:Bear with me here but why would this cause distortion? The screen grid simply attracts electrons in its attempt to draw them to the plate, as I understand it. So any "signal" landing on the screen doesnt make it to the speaker because it is filtered out by the screen filter cap. Thinking about this more, wouldnt this screen voltage simply be a way to control power?

ok now I'm ready to get b*$&ch slapped back to reality...! :?
The screen behavior is dynamic and with the added resistor (let's say 220k), there is now a direct path to ground for all frequencies for each screen. Wouldn't that be providing local negative feedback and hence some added compression at high current? More of a limiter and not a regulator. The effect of the added screen bleeder is audible in the build I have it currently installed in. Since I push my amps hard, I like the idea of limiting screen abuse while exploiting screen compression effects.

You could VVR the screens.
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Structo
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Structo »

Sorry for another question.

Is it best to use a metal oxide type flame proof resistor and is 1 watt size adequate.

And, should all of these 220K resistors be ideally the same actual measured value?
IOW low tolerance resistors?
Tom

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ChrisM
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by ChrisM »

Structo wrote:Sorry for another question.

Is it best to use a metal oxide type flame proof resistor and is 1 watt size adequate.

And, should all of these 220K resistors be ideally the same actual measured value?
IOW low tolerance resistors?
Yes metal oxide is fine. Use 2W as 1W is cutting it kinda close.

Tolerance doesn't matter.
tubeswell
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by tubeswell »

surfsup wrote:Couple questions as I follow along:

The upper leg of the voltage divider drops 20V across the 500R.

Where do you get the 20V? half the 40 volts total drop on the schematic? I dont think that is correct because the first 500R has all the preamp current through it plus the screen current, the screen 500R only has the screen current so it wouldnt be 50/50. I guess it would only be a few volts difference but just curious on the clarification on the 20V.
The preamp stages are only drawing ~4mA altogether. And so yes, basically I crudely cut the 40V difference (between 590 and 550) in half between the two 500R resistors, which is 40mA passing through each resistor on average. But if you add 4mA for the pre-amp current through the first resistor, then that will increase the voltage drop across that first 500R a wee bit and decrease the voltage drop across the 500R at the input for the screen voltage divider a wee bit. Nevertheless, you still end up with 550V dropped across 22k, being 25mA through the bottom of the divider, and relative to screen current (say 5-6mA per screen for 6L6s or more for EL34s), then that is somewhere between about 10mA to 12mA going to the screens, which would still be about 1/3 as much as the whole divider is dropping.

The only consolation is that while one screen is sucking more current, the other one should be sucking only the idle amount (in Class AB1 - in the part of the cycle when the 'non-active' tube's screen voltage is, I think?, quiescent - but I stand to be corrected about that) .

Nevertheless this form of regulation is still subject to limitations of the effect of varying screen current on the voltage at the output of the voltage divider, and the higher the proportion of screen current to total current in the voltage divider,the bigger the potential output voltage fluctuation will be.

surfsup wrote:That is 40mA. The remaining 550V is dropped across the 22000R, which is 25mA. So 15mA is available to go to the screens (7.5mA per screen).

Aren't you also assuming here the max current is 40mA through the divider network when really the max current is if the screen went to zero, which would be 550v across the 500+200 = 785mA (assuming the screen went to zero (unlikely) and the resistors didn't fry - which they would). My point is I don't think 40mA is a "limiting" current value for the screens. It is only valid across the 220k.
I was thinking about screen current increase (not screen current decrease) affecting the current through the upper leg of the divider, as a proportion of the total current through the divider (i.e.: from input to ground), which therefore affects the voltage at the output (knee) of the voltage divider.
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Gaz »

While it's complicated to accurately measure RMS screen dissipation, you can approximate it by measuring across the individual screen resistors, and use the sagged screen voltage to find it. I'm mentioning it because the resistors in the divider should be calculated using the max draw from the screens, not the draw at idle. It is common to measure 15-20mA peaks per tube on non-master Marshalls. Ouch.
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by surfsup »

Colossal wrote:
surfsup wrote:Bear with me here but why would this cause distortion? The screen grid simply attracts electrons in its attempt to draw them to the plate, as I understand it. So any "signal" landing on the screen doesnt make it to the speaker because it is filtered out by the screen filter cap. Thinking about this more, wouldnt this screen voltage simply be a way to control power?

ok now I'm ready to get b*$&ch slapped back to reality...! :?
The screen behavior is dynamic and with the added resistor (let's say 220k), there is now a direct path to ground for all frequencies for each screen. Wouldn't that be providing local negative feedback and hence some added compression at high current? More of a limiter and not a regulator. The effect of the added screen bleeder is audible in the build I have it currently installed in. Since I push my amps hard, I like the idea of limiting screen abuse while exploiting screen compression effects.

You could VVR the screens.
I tacked one in and havent been able to crank it yet. I'd scope it but theres too many gator clips on this now, and i'd risk pulling something apart with heavy probe clips in there right now. I've got a 1k off the rail to a 220k to ground with two 220r going to the screens from there. I dmm 335 plates and 329 screens. What domyou consider pushing el84s hard? What's your max peak voltage coming from your PI?
I was thinking about screen current increase...affecting the voltage at the output of the voltage divider.


Okay i read your comment as meaning there was current limiting happening through the 500R and only allowing 15mA max for the screens. My misunderstanding.
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Colossal »

Gaz wrote:It is common to measure 15-20mA peaks per tube on non-master Marshalls. Ouch.
Gaz, do you know if that is sustained 15-20mA or very short peaks?
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Colossal
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Colossal »

surfsup wrote:I tacked one in and havent been able to crank it yet. I'd scope it but theres too many gator clips on this now, and i'd risk pulling something apart with heavy probe clips in there right now. I've got a 1k off the rail to a 220k to ground with two 220r going to the screens from there. I dmm 335 plates and 329 screens. What domyou consider pushing el84s hard? What's your max peak voltage coming from your PI?
So you are using just the one resistor? I have 220k to ground off each of four grids (4xEL84 power amp). The junction of each 1k (screen resistor) and each 220k bleeder/divider resistor sees straight B+2. I am pretty sure the plates are at 360V IIRC, 11W a tube. One cathode bias resistor per pair. I'll have to measure max AC signal from the PI. Haven't been in the amp for a while.
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Gaz »

Colossal wrote:
Gaz wrote:It is common to measure 15-20mA peaks per tube on non-master Marshalls. Ouch.
Gaz, do you know if that is sustained 15-20mA or very short peaks?
If I slam powered chords and sustain the notes, I can sustain the screen torture. It's easy to make the grids glow, and they are doing so because they are over-dissipating by a few watts. So like you I'm an advocate of mods like this because I have trouble turning down the rock, so to speak :)
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by surfsup »

Colossal wrote:
surfsup wrote:I tacked one in and havent been able to crank it yet. I'd scope it but theres too many gator clips on this now, and i'd risk pulling something apart with heavy probe clips in there right now. I've got a 1k off the rail to a 220k to ground with two 220r going to the screens from there. I dmm 335 plates and 329 screens. What domyou consider pushing el84s hard? What's your max peak voltage coming from your PI?
So you are using just the one resistor? I have 220k to ground off each of four grids (4xEL84 power amp). The junction of each 1k (screen resistor) and each 220k bleeder/divider resistor sees straight B+2. I am pretty sure the plates are at 360V IIRC, 11W a tube. One cathode bias resistor per pair. I'll have to measure max AC signal from the PI. Haven't been in the amp for a while.
Yes. 2xEL84, with shared cathode. The 1k comes off the PS rail choke, with a single 220k to ground then 2x220R feeding each screen. I would love to know what amount of signal you are sending.
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Liquids »

Colossal wrote:
Structo wrote:Is it better to have a 220K to ground from each screen resistor?
Yes, this is the way you want it. Each screen resistor gets its own divider resistor to ground. Least amount of heat this way as well if divider resistor is a high(ish) value.
Won't this cause each screen only to 'see' it's own voltage divider, but also create (# of Power Tubes) x 220k to ground in parallel?

Hence, wouldn't that be the equivalent of an added 110k (for 2 tubes) or 55k (for 4 Tubes) resistance load on the power supply as the Power Supply sees it, and 2x or 4x the heat of an equivalent arrangement that results in the same voltage drop with one 220k resistor to ground?
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Colossal »

Liquids wrote:Won't this cause each screen only to 'see' it's own voltage divider, but also create (# of Power Tubes) x 220k to ground in parallel?
Yes, each grid sees its own divider. I believe this is the way Andy originally presented the idea, and the way I implemented it.
Hence, wouldn't that be the equivalent of an added 110k (for 2 tubes) or 55k (for 4 Tubes) resistance load on the power supply as the Power Supply sees it, and 2x or 4x the heat of an equivalent arrangement that results in the same voltage drop with one 220k resistor to ground?
I'm looking at the divider/bleeder from DC, so it's forming a small bleed to ground for the B+2 cap (additional smoothing via slight current draw) as well as limiting screen voltage to <B+1 and from the AC side in that the divider gives some compression effects at high current and local feedback which is providing limited regulation.

In regards to the resulting heat of dissipation, I was contrasting Tom's (Structo) comment to another poster about using a large or small value divider resistor. My intent was to suggest that of the two, he would have less heat using a large value for the divider resistor(s) instead of a small value. The previous poster cited an example of an old design using a resistive divider of low value but high wattage resistors.
Last edited by Colossal on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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renshen1957
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by renshen1957 »

Andy Le Blanc wrote:the result after screen grid resistors was a few "less" volts at the tube socket.

nope its just another crap silver face, filled with ceramics and blue and brown turd caps

its simply fine tuning screens voltage to insure that the plate is positive
I was surprised... get into an amp and measure the difference between the plate a screen at the tube socket.

I got into a textbook circuit, and when I played it I heard a distortion, that fender fizz, when I measured it the screens were slightly positive, I could hear the distortion, and everything was technically correct.

getting that extra step of control allows you to measure and set up that aspect of the circuit the same as you would the bias, it really seems to make a difference

if your not too busy cloning, get in there and play with it
Hi Andy,

How is the amp, touch sensitivity wise?

Best Regards,

Steve
Andy Le Blanc
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by Andy Le Blanc »

The amps great, very responsive, it warmed up and got more "tube" like.
I played around with all sorts of divider arrangements etc... my only goal was get the difference between the plate a screen to 0 or -, the tone quality was a surprise. I did notice that you can shut off the tube with the screen grid, if you keep going with it. It was a surprise realization that the screen where positive at idle, you look at the data sheet and you NEVER see that.
End up making assumptions for years, glad to get a handle on a measurement that reveled it. I've measured it in all the fenders that come across my bench for service too, so far it seems very consistent.
lazymaryamps
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chocopower
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Re: voltage divider for screen grids

Post by chocopower »

Here are some others examples of G2 regulation. Those ones use an EL34 and half ecc83 to do the job.

http://mundomusicalmeria.com/mundomusic ... n_2500.jpg

http://mundomusicalmeria.com/mundomusic ... 000_vr.jpg
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