Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

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JamesO
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by JamesO »

Hi everyone

Argh! I started teaching this semester, so this is the first chance I've had to get back to trouble shooting this amp in six months. I just can't figure it out. The sound clip tells the story:

http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... es_amp.mp3

Everything powers up, but when you flip the standby to on, there is a low frequency oscillation that isn't effected by adjusting the master and gain controls, the switches, or the tone controls. Any ideas?

I know helping people like this can take a lot of time, so thank you in advance. I'd like to Paypal a little something to whoever helps me fix it as a thank you.

These are the pics. I redid each solder last night just in case, and some of them got too hot.

[img:1166:1752]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/shane/v1_v2.jpg[/img]
[img:1166:1752]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... verter.jpg[/img]
[img:1166:1752]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... rtubes.jpg[/img]
[img:1746:982]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... itches.jpg[/img]
[img:1748:984]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... ntrols.jpg[/img]
[img:1752:1166]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... itches.jpg[/img]
[img:1501:845]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... _board.jpg[/img]
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Bob-I
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:06 pm
Location: Hillsborough NJ

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by Bob-I »

I'd start by disconnecting the NFB connection. If the OT secondaries are reversed you'll get LF oscillation from the NFB loop.

You didn't mention if any sound comes through.
JamesO
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by JamesO »

Hey Bob

Sorry about that. There isn't any sound coming through. I tried switching the primaries when I was working on it six months ago and had the oscillation both ways.
JamesO
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by JamesO »

The transformers are Heyboer. Blue to V4, brown to V5.
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heisthl
Posts: 1800
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Location: Phoenix

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by heisthl »

Divide and conquer - if you have a power amp in jack that disconnects the preamp start there, if not lift the leg on the PI entrance cap on the preamp side. If the noise goes away it's in the preamp, if not its the power amp/PI.
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
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ic-racer
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by ic-racer »

Along those same 'divide and conquer' lines, I noticed that there is a audible click when touching the voltage probe to the preamp resistors when making the voltage measurements with a multimeter. Check the PI plate resistors. If there is no click from the speaker when you test them then perhaps you have mis-wired the PI, Power Tubes, or OT.

If it isolates to the output section you could try tracing your circuit connections from the speaker jack up stream to the PI. Either draw it out or compare to your schematic; you may discover something amiss. A lot of opportunities for dyslexic wiring errors there. (ask me how I know.... :) )
JamesO
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by JamesO »

lol, I know all about miswiring too :)
lift the leg on the PI entrance cap on the preamp side.
Would this be the ground side of the .02 that runs to the Master?
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heisthl
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by heisthl »

Second cap from left in your second picture - lift the side towards the controls. You can put a line level signal on the lifted leg.
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
rfgordon
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by rfgordon »

If you already know this, disregard, but you can make a cheap and easy signal injector.

1. Get chopstick, tape, hook up wire, and gator clip.
2. Get sacrificial instrument cable.
3. Get 600VDC/.1mF (virtually any mF value will do)
4. Cut off one end of the cable, and strip it back.
5. Solder about 18" of stranded hookup wire to the ground shield of the cable, and solder the gator clip to the other end of the hookup wire.
6. Solder one lead of the cap to the center lead of the cable.
7. Tape the cable/cap assembly to the chopstick with the free lead of the cap sticking past the end of the chopstick by about an inch.

To use it, plug the cable into a source, say the headphone jack of an stereo. Next, clip the gator to chassis ground. Touch the cap lead to where you want to inject signal.

For amp troubleshooting, start at the PI and move toward the front of the amp, because the point at which the amp stops amplifying the signal is a problem spot.

Good luck.
Rich Gordon
www.myspace.com/bigboyamplifiers

"The takers get the honey, the givers get the blues." --Robin Trower
JamesO
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by JamesO »

Good news. I lifted the leg of the capacitor and the noise is still present. This means the issue is in the power section?
DonMoose
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by DonMoose »

It could be the power supply - if the sound is 60/120Hz, you may have a filter cap that's not grounded.

You might want to look at the B+, Vscreen and Vbias for noise. Would a DVM on VAC pick up anything useful here?

Hope this helps!
groovtubin
Posts: 1114
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:52 am

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by groovtubin »

JamesO wrote:Hi everyone

Argh! I started teaching this semester, so this is the first chance I've had to get back to trouble shooting this amp in six months. I just can't figure it out. The sound clip tells the story:

http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... es_amp.mp3

Everything powers up, but when you flip the standby to on, there is a low frequency oscillation that isn't effected by adjusting the master and gain controls, the switches, or the tone controls. Any ideas?

I know helping people like this can take a lot of time, so thank you in advance. I'd like to Paypal a little something to whoever helps me fix it as a thank you.

These are the pics. I redid each solder last night just in case, and some of them got too hot.

[img:1166:1752]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/shane/v1_v2.jpg[/img]
[img:1166:1752]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... verter.jpg[/img]
[img:1166:1752]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... rtubes.jpg[/img]
[img:1746:982]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... itches.jpg[/img]
[img:1748:984]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... ntrols.jpg[/img]
[img:1752:1166]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... itches.jpg[/img]
[img:1501:845]http://languagepool.net/amps/dumble/sha ... _board.jpg[/img]
Looking at sec pic, you have shlded wire going to the NFB area vs the PI input???? That def looks wrong from here! Pls rechek that!

jp@Omegaamps
JamesO
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by JamesO »

That's from the presence. I mounted the presence control on the back and used shielded wire. The shielded wire from the master is routed correctly.

I'll check out all of the filter caps.
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ic-racer
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Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by ic-racer »

I listened to the soundclip again and it does remind me of something I have heard before.

I have heard a similar sound when inadvertently removing too many or all of the power tubes from one 'side' of the output section.
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heisthl
Posts: 1800
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Trouble shooting (w/clips and pics)

Post by heisthl »

what value are the bleeder resistors on the 2 100uf B+1 filter caps?
EDIT - never mind they must be 220K it's hard to tell that third band is yellow

I'm not crazy about the PI to output grid wire(s) routing but I don't think that's causing your problem.

2nd EDIT - It looks like you're using isolated jacks for the speaker outs but I don't see where they ever get grounded to the rest of the amp - that would definitely cause your problem unless you disable the GNF (presence circuit).
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
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