thought's on vintage 'iron' and voltages

[norburybrook]

Yesterday a good friend of mine came over for a day of guitar geekery. We hadn't seen each other for a while so it was great to catch up. He's a great guitar player and we've worked together on various projects/artists over the years.


The last amps he'd played that were fresh in his mind were: An original two rock JM sig which was £25,000 and 2x new signature reverbs. The original had been borrowed from a rich friend and the other two were being auditioned for purchase, they work out about £4500 each here, so big bucks.

So the first amp of mine to try was obviously my JM/wonderland amp. Within the first 30 seconds he said 'this is head and shoulders better than all three of those two rock amps' . He said ' I was quite disappointed when I actually played them as I was expecting better, but your amp is exactly what I was expecting, it's in another league'.


we then went on to go though my other ODS amps and he had the same reaction again when we plugged the bluesmaster in. He just thought that was the best amp he'd ever played. He was using a 50's strat with Texas special pickups and jumbo frets, so his thing is John Mayer/SRV.

IMG_20190318_162246-01.jpeg

After he'd left I started to think about those two amps and I remembered they're both made from '80's Peavey iron, and they both therefore have around 500v on the plates as I had to use FWB recification. . He also said the reverb on the JM was the best amp reverb he'd heard, again a lot better than the two rocks. This was also a USA made 80's acusonic tank from the same Peavey.

This made me wonder if the 'old' peavey iron and the higher voltage was giving these two amps that extra mojo.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I've still no idea why certain amps sound 'amazing'


M

[martin manning]

I have heard people say that aged iron sounds better before, and we know HAD used recycled transformers. What about the amps you built with InMadOut transformers? Are they inferior? High voltages usually translate into cleaner sound in the power amp, and the load line falling a bit wrt the knee in the grid curves, which may have some tonal effect.

There is one way to find out, A-B one of your amps with the old transformers by swapping in a new one. One would think the OT is the relavent piece, and of course the swap could be done using clip leads.

[norburybrook]

I have heard people say that aged iron sounds better before, and we know HAD used recycled transformers. What about the amps you built with InMadOut transformers? Are they inferior? High voltages usually translate into cleaner sound in the power amp, and the load line falling a bit wrt the knee in the grid curves, which may have some tonal effect.

There is one way to find out, A-B one of your amps with the old transformers by swapping in a new one. One would think the OT is the relavent piece, and of course the swap could be done using clip leads.

the inMadOut transformer amps would be the 70's second gen and the recent #183, oh and my #102 . He liked the #102, thought the #183 had the most useful overdrive for working in the 'pop' world but generally he wasn't a fan of the Dumble OD. He liked the 70's 2nd gen amp the least. As I said he's a strat/pedal guy mainly and loved the Fet boost on the Bluesmaster and the sheer punch and glassy spank from the 100w into the 2x12 cab. The 1x12 cab I've just made with the classic lead 80 handled the 100w JM amp great as well, it was really loud!!!! but I bottled after a while and plugged it into the 2x12 just in case.

I was just very surprised when he said my JM amp was so much better than the three he tried, one of which was a very expensive original.

As I said Martin, I wish I knew what it was that made an amp special.



M

[Bombacaototal]

Very interesting report Marcus, and thanks for sharing the outcome of the day of tone testing with your friend.

I guess different people like different things? I remember Larry Carlton found the Bluesmaster a bit sterile but he really liked the #102.....

I guess the ultimate amp geekery would be to know what a player likes (by listening to him/her play - attack, style, etc) and then knowing (i) what circuit would be most suited and (ii) what changes to components and transformers would bring that specific circuit closer to the player's needs. But I wonder if anyone has got that level of expertise...

I guess in the end one needs to build a bunch of stuff and then try them all and see which one sparkles the magic (for you)? I would presume most people buy (or build) amps based on a guess of what they thing they might like, which may be correct or not, as very few customers would actually walk in a builders workshop and try everything before placing an order...and very few people will build every incarnation of an ODS (hats off to you for doing that by the way)...

I am curious on the "modus operandi" of the more experienced folks here when building amps for their own use...

[norburybrook]

my friend built every incarnation of ODS to come to the conclusion he didn't like them He now has a couple of clean only #102 and BLuesmaster amps and uses pedals. My friend yesterday didn't really like the OD on the ODS amps. It's all down to playing style, guitar and musical situations. Most of the time as a working guitarist you're providing what the artists wants. It's only a very few people get to be themselves professionally. A lot of session players I Know never even have to ask that question, who am I musically speaking? as it's not part of their job.




M

[martin manning]

I was thinking along the same lines, i.e., that one just spoke to this person in ways that the others didn’t. However, that doesn’t explain why the other Two Rock amps didn’t have the je ne sais quoi ;^)

[norburybrook]

I was thinking along the same lines, i.e., that one just spoke to this person in ways that the others didn’t. However, that doesn’t explain why the other Two Rock amps didn’t have the je ne sais quoi ;^)

that was the real issue for me Martin, I mean one of those amps was £25,000 and is an original JM sig, the other two were £4500 each and the latest versions of the reverb signature, so I'm at a loss to work out why my humble offering sounded so much better than all 3 of them, hence me starting to wonder about the 500v B+ and the 80's Vintage transformers. My friend has good ears and is a real tone hound so he said he knew instantly that my amp was just amazing compared to the two rocks, also he's no need to indulge me or flatter me in anyway as we've friends a long time and been through a lot together.

It's an interesting journey though still for me with the playing and the building, I feel I'm getting to the point now where I no longer need to build anything else for my own personal needs, in fact I could manage with two or 3 amps quite easily so it's possible I might sell some at a later date. The latest album I've been working on I've used the Tweedle Dee exclusively. It's a great amp through that cream alnico.

M

[Bombacaototal]

That is a fair point (Your Sig vs the Two Rock Amps). And I understand why you are scratching the head...

Just some thoughts: Did he use a same style cabinet with similar wood? If the cabinets he used were loaded with the G12-65 (not broken in) this could be a contributing factor? Speakers make such a huge difference (as you pointed out countless times and I agree)...

For example, the CL80 (which I really like for cleans too) has much more high end than the G12-65 and for a dark amp like the Mayer I think it helps to a more balanced sound (in my opinion)

I am curious on which would be your top 3 amps (non Dumble included)...

[norburybrook]

That is a fair point (Your Sig vs the Two Rock Amps). And I understand why you are scratching the head...

Just some thoughts: Did he use a same style cabinet with similar wood? If the cabinets he used were loaded with the G12-65 (not broken in) this could be a contributing factor? Speakers make such a huge difference (as you pointed out countless times and I agree)...

For example, the CL80 (which I really like for cleans too) has much more high end than the G12-65 and for a dark amp like the Mayer I think it helps to a more balanced sound (in my opinion)

I am curious on which would be your top 3 amps (non Dumble included)...

I don't think we're talking subtleties of wood cabinets here the two rock 2x12 is an exact copy of the dumble like mine so I presume it's made from 18mm plywood. We're talking about the feel, tone in an instant being noticeably better. An interesting point as well that we both noted. The single 1x12 classic lead 80 didn't sound that much different to the 2x12 G12 -65's , it handled the 100w JM amp too dimed, as I said I did start to worry so swapped to the 2x12 and we both noted about how little the sound changed, although I think the fact the 1x12 was close to a wall had something to play in that as it reinforces the low end. However, you usually find yourself dialling out low end when recording or doing a gig so I was well impressed with the 1x12.

Here's what he posted on Facebook


I was genuinely amazed how good they were. If you have a man crush on JM or a craving for that Where The Light Is tone - it’s right there in those boxes!!!!!


for obvious reasons he didn't want to publicly mention the comparison between the two rocks as they belong to friends who have spent a lot of money!!!!


M

[Bombacaototal]

Yes, the Two Rock 2x12 standing cab is 18mm ply, so common ground here.
Very interesting that you noticed very little difference between the 1x12 with CL80 and the 2x12 with the G12-65. For me changing speakers and cabs always makes a noticeable difference.

I am glad you got a special amp there! And really cool to have the props of your friend who tried some great Two Rock Amps including the limited 25. Congrats!

[mojotom]

The two rock I’ve played felt very hifi somehow, a bit stiff and quite bass heavy (maybe due to their bigger transformers). Always feel like playing bass and guitar at once.
They are very good amps nevertheless.

The JM design is awesome and for me it is a Two-Rock design (very inspired for sure).

I try to build a 124 with very high quality transformers, better more recent design, quite heavier than an old set of Twin transformers.
Thing is I build an amp prior to that one, same chassis, same components but with older specs (classic vs precision PS, Old 60’s tranny set, proper RG59 vs more modern coax wire) and I greatly preferred the first one. It was less stiff, way smoother and the OD was miles ahead.
Did change the PS and coax wire, a little better but I would say 80% or more of the upgrade came from the old set of tranny so I mostly build them with those parts until I depleted my tranny stock.
Didn’t try Inmadout in those same amps but I like them a lot compare to the US brands I’ve tried in the past.

I would really like to know if voltages is a huge tweak or not as I’m a bit low voltage wise atm on my smaller ODSR style amps but I have smaller transformers.

Compare to an old JCM800 for exemple with big OT and PT running at 480V and felt balanced I cane to think higher voltages and bigger transformers seems a good match and tend to fill the room faster (or fit a bigger room).

I was told for that kind of amps that OT plates voltages was not what was important and I thrust him a lot so I stop bothering.


Your builds looked awesome Marcus and you choose the right components and for sure the Peavey sets did help. No wonder why they sound like they do.

Thanks for the jazz switch too after the Bonamassa video. Didn’t put them on my amp at first ad rediscover the amp after adding one (Erwin helped too).
Really like a high plate jazz setting pushed atm

[10thTx]

Marcus,

I always enjoy reading your threads about your amps! You make very significant observations. You ask great questions. I admire your thoughtful approach to tone and amp
building. THANKS for your excellent contributions to the forum & the genuine measure of humility that you bring to the table.

This is a particularly interesting thread. I hope others who have used modern and vintage iron both will chime in with their thoughts and observation.

With respect, 10thtx

[norburybrook]

Marcus,

I always enjoy reading your threads about your amps! You make very significant observations. You ask great questions. I admire your thoughtful approach to tone and amp
building. THANKS for your excellent contributions to the forum & the genuine measure of humility that you bring to the table.

This is a particularly interesting thread. I hope others who have used modern and vintage iron both will chime in with their thoughts and observation.

With respect, 10thtx

thanks I'm just trying to give back to this great place. Without it I wouldn't have been able to build my amps so I will always be eternally indebted to everyone here.

obviously my views, musings are just that but it's interesting to discuss this stuff and it's also great for me to have friends of mine come over to the studio and give me some real world feedback on the amps I've built. I've not really used anything but my own amps for a number of years now so I've lost my 'objectivity'


I think tone chasing is like golf, no matter how good you get you never really master it

as long as it doesn't get in the way of making music then it's all good, the problem arises when it stops you from actually making music.....well unless you're a pro amp builder of course.... Doh!!!!!



M

[erwin_ve]

as long as it doesn't get in the way of making music then it's all good, the problem arises when it stops you from actually making music.....

M

I actually messed up a few gigs trying out some mods that totally did not work. Didn't feel confident, as a result played different/ not confident and that resulted in; never got asked by that artist again , big lesson for me, only check out with rehearsels

As for the Peavey transformers; did 2 builds with Classic VT Iron (PT, OT 50W) and Deuce Iron (PT, OT100W), both builds sound awesome.

[hitchcaster]

the old two rocks transformers and parts selection were nothing special...