A Quick Word on the Use of TC Pedal in Loop Without D-lator

[ayan]

Having read about it here I got curious since I have a TC Flashback on my pedalboard for when I use backline amps, and since I wouldn't mind ditching my rack for gigs if I could get away with it. So, I tried this over the weekend and while the pedal works without overdriving at gig levels, the signal degradation due to impedance mismatch is noticeable and highs and dynamics suffer too much for my taste. Thought I'd share this here in case anyone else was thinking about it.

Gil

[Structo]

I tried the Flashback x4 a while back and found it awkward and like you said, didn't sound real good when loud.

[marcos]

Gil,
thank you for the report, I was thinking of trying the same thing,
although I expected that it would not work perfectly.
So I will have to finish my d-lator project some time.
BTW for about a decade I have been using what I call the "poor man´s
Larry Carlton rig", i.e. using a small solid state amp for fx, fed by a line-out
signal via a d.i. box from the external speaker jack. Works, and not
a whole lot more to carry than a rack with a d-lator, but it entails
using two mics when recording or playing through a p.a.

Marcos

[norburybrook]

I haven't used my amps dimed so can't comment on 'LOUD' use, but general volume I would have no problem NOT using the Dumbleator with my TC FX. (alter ego X4 and HOF)

Larry Carlton hated the Dumbleator and what it did to his sound


Just another perspective.


Marcus

[ayan]

Even without the amp being loud, there is a definite signal degradation, at least with my gear. It's not that the TC will be overdriven by the amp's signal per se, but the tone gets darker and dulller immediately. Really easy to A/B the sounds if your TC is set for true bypass (the non mini versions have an internal switch for buffer VS true bypass setting, the minis are true bypass only). Put it in the loop and turn the "FX" knob all the way down so you only get the "unaltered dry singal" when the pedal is on. Then turn the pedal on and off and if things sound the same in your case, then you're good to go. My TC FB makes things sound like I've turned the guitar's tone know half way down.

As far as LC's tone over the years, my favorite Dumble tones of his remain the late 80s period through the very early 90s. Regardless of the guitar used... 1st Valley Arts Strat, 2nd VA Strat, VA Tele, Les Paul Special, etc. Even with the 335, which he didn't use much at all then, he got what to me was and is "THE" definitive Dumble sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP5i-zmhhsw

He hasn't sounded like in this video for decades. In the early 90s, something changed. He lost the Dumbleator -- which he told Brandon he threw in the garbage -- and I suspect his amp was modded to what it was when Brandon took over amp services for him several years ago. He still plays great and all, but long gone are the days when he was my tone guru. Unfortunately for me, most of my guitar heroes have changed their taste for tone with time: first and foremost Eric Clapton Gibsons through Marshalls VS everything that came after that; Ritchie Blackmore with tape machine and Marshalls in "Machine Head" vs whatever he ended up using many years later; Robben Ford with Dumbleator and TC 2290, using the ODS overdrive vs pedalboard; and last but not least, Carlos Santana with either Twins and P90s or early Boogies VS the muddy tone he has favored for a few decades now.

Gil

I haven't used my amps dimed so can't comment on 'LOUD' use, but general volume I would have no problem NOT using the Dumbleator with my TC FX. (alter ego X4 and HOF)

Larry Carlton hated the Dumbleator and what it did to his sound


Just another perspective.


Marcus

[Aaron]

Thanks Gil, that is a really nice sounding clip. Nice to actually hear the tone of the amp.
Aaron

[marcos]

As far as LC's tone over the years, my favorite Dumble tones of his remain the late 80s period through the very early 90s. Regardless of the guitar used... 1st Valley Arts Strat, 2nd VA Strat, VA Tele, Les Paul Special, etc. Even with the 335, which he didn't use much at all then, he got what to me was and is "THE" definitive Dumble sound:



He hasn't sounded like in this video for decades.

Gil,
I feel exactly the same about the evolution of LCs tone in the last decades.
I saw him a couple of years ago, he was using his Bludo, and I definetely felt
something was missing. I remember he only used overdrive on two songs,
and he switched to the treble pickup of his 335 for those two songs.
No intention of critizing the man, I am only expressing my regret about losing something I really enjoyed. The same goes for the other
great players you mentioned, fortunately we still have recordings and videos
of their glory days.

Marcos

[bluesfendermanblues]

As far as LC's tone over the years, my favorite Dumble tones of his remain the late 80s period through the very early 90s. Regardless of the guitar used... 1st Valley Arts Strat, 2nd VA Strat, VA Tele, Les Paul Special, etc. Even with the 335, which he didn't use much at all then, he got what to me was and is "THE" definitive Dumble sound:



He hasn't sounded like in this video for decades.

Gil,
I feel exactly the same about the evolution of LCs tone in the last decades.
I saw him a couple of years ago, he was using his Bludo, and I definetely felt
something was missing. I remember he only used overdrive on two songs,
and he switched to the treble pickup of his 335 for those two songs.
No intention of critizing the man, I am only expressing my regret about losing something I really enjoyed. The same goes for the other
great players you mentioned, fortunately we still have recordings and videos
of their glory days.

Marcos

I am totally in agreement with the above. LC is a great player with tasty tone, but not the tone he became famous for.

The D-later definitively adds the magic compression to the clean tone that is way different from the standard clean tones of e.g. the classic fender clean. Way more articulate compression than the sag of a tube rectifier in the PSU.

[norburybrook]

going to have to go back and do an AB test again now after reading all this.


I Know Robben has stopped using his Dumbleator now as well and uses 2x TC HOF pedals on his board, no rack any more, he sounded as good as ever last month when I saw him.


Marcus

[rogb]

Marcus, to me the key to the Dlator was the MiniMix as a summing mixer, being able to effect the signal without passing it through A/D/A converters.
When I tried the HOF in the loop, I didn't like it, although I must try my pedal board straight into the input like RF, maybe that would be sound OK?

Got to say, I quite like the 2ndGen with guitar straight in too, no effects at all!

PS in case I forget may I wish you and all the guys a very enjoyable tour Down Under

[norburybrook]

thanks Roger. indeed the whole tone and pedals issue is a very interesting one. I've got a spare hour today so I'm going to have another 'test' with this and see where I'm at.

the whole in front or loop FX is another set of variables, as is pedal order, I like to run stereo as well and that's a whole different ball game....wet/dry...another way of doing it.


I do use a Pete Cornish buffer at the start and end of my chain, maybe that helps negate some tone loss??? who knows..


I'm still wondering when I'm going to get time to build my Bluesmaster!!


Marcus

[ayan]

My impression is different. I saw him on a warm up for the current tour several weeks ago at GC here in Hollywood, and he had the pedalboard through the Dumble -- and I've seen him about once a year since forever. I used to see him a lot here back in the early 90s, around the time when the whole Blue Line thing began. His tone then was simply to die for. Interestingly, and merely as a piece of trivia, revisiting my old records later on I realized that that RF tone was an approximation of the tone Eric Clapton had on " Spoonful" (when he switches to the reble pickup) and "Sleepy Time Time" on the Fresh Cream album.

Gil

going to have to go back and do an AB test again now after reading all this.


I Know Robben has stopped using his Dumbleator now as well and uses 2x TC HOF pedals on his board, no rack any more, he sounded as good as ever last month when I saw him.


Marcus

[norburybrook]

Gil,

indeed it just goes to show that tone is in ear of the beholder, we all like different tones, and thanks god for that or the world would be a boring place.

A good friend of mine who's a great guitarist doesn't like Robben Ford's tone at all, another friend hated Nile Rogers sound, go figure


I did spend an hour today going over this again and to honest I plugged the TC units straight into the amps loop turned down the delay level and AB'd with on off and I couldn't tell the difference. As I said I have buffers at the start and end of mu up front pedal chain so maybe that does help in the loop as well with the tone. Also I don't like an overly bright tone so maybe that helps too.

I do like the dumbleator as an extra tone control and gain stage so I prefer it in but as I said I could quite happily use the pedals without it.

All good stuff

now back to old fashioned acoustics for this weekends gigs.



Marcus

[ayan]

I did spend an hour today going over this again and to honest I plugged the TC units straight into the amps loop turned down the delay level and AB'd with on off and I couldn't tell the difference. As I said I have buffers at the start and end of mu up front pedal chain so maybe that does help in the loop as well with the tone. Also I don't like an overly bright tone so maybe that helps too.

I too have a (dual) buffer at the start and end of my pedalboard, but that does nothing to help with the impedance mismatch that occurs when plugging something directly into the FX loop of the amp without any buffering at that point. I am very surprised there is no difference for you with the pedal ON vs OFF... I wonder if your TC is internally set for buffer instead of true bypass?

Gil

[ToneMerc]

As far as LC's tone over the years, my favorite Dumble tones of his remain the late 80s period through the very early 90s. Regardless of the guitar used... 1st Valley Arts Strat, 2nd VA Strat, VA Tele, Les Paul Special, etc. Even with the 335, which he didn't use much at all then, he got what to me was and is "THE" definitive Dumble sound:



He hasn't sounded like in this video for decades.

Gil,
I feel exactly the same about the evolution of LCs tone in the last decades.
I saw him a couple of years ago, he was using his Bludo, and I definetely felt
something was missing. I remember he only used overdrive on two songs,
and he switched to the treble pickup of his 335 for those two songs.
No intention of critizing the man, I am only expressing my regret about losing something I really enjoyed. The same goes for the other
great players you mentioned, fortunately we still have recordings and videos
of their glory days.

Marcos

I am totally in agreement with the above. LC is a great player with tasty tone, but not the tone he became famous for.

Same here as well.

TM