I am really liking these lower powered D'lites. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Moss clip and the one (Brownnote?) on youtube (looks like it got removed - too bad ) sound more like a really killer 18 watt Marshall clone than a Dumble. It sounds like where the 50/100 watt clones are all about pre-amp clipping, these are a combination of preamp and output tube clipping. Bottom line, I am loving this sound and although I am very pleased with my 50 watt HRM, I am thinking I also want the sound this little beast has to offer. Also, due in large part to this forum, I am re-thinking my prejudice against 1-12" combos that I picked up after years of hating the sound of a Boogie 1-12" combo. I am finally off of that soapbox.
So, is this just an HRM front end coupled to a 6v6 power section? Or more directly - is there a schematic available (I have Normster's non-HRM layout from some months back)?
Also, any thoughts on using a '70 Twin as a donor? I am thinking the OT will need to be swapped out at least. It's either that or build from scratch which I don't mind doing. I personally don't need another high powered amp - 40 watts is the max I will need at home or afield. OK, I am being practical and that's no fun. Really what I should do is convert the Twin AND build a D'lite from scratch!
Tonegeek wrote:Bottom line, I am loving this sound and although I am very pleased with my 50 watt HRM, I am thinking I also want the sound this little beast has to offer. Also, due in large part to this forum, I am re-thinking my prejudice against 1-12" combos that I picked up after years of hating the sound of a Boogie 1-12" combo. I am finally off of that soapbox.
Boogie 1x12 vs Dumble 1x12, no comparison. Glad you're off that soapbox. Dumble's can be amazing, especally with a really great speaker, Celestion G12-65 or EVM.
So, is this just an HRM front end coupled to a 6v6 power section? Or more directly - is there a schematic available (I have Normster's non-HRM layout from some months back)?
The only differences in the 6V6 amp is bias voltage, B+ voltage and OT impedance.
Also, any thoughts on using a '70 Twin as a donor? I am thinking the OT will need to be swapped out at least. It's either that or build from scratch which I don't mind doing. I personally don't need another high powered amp - 40 watts is the max I will need at home or afield. OK, I am being practical and that's no fun. Really what I should do is convert the Twin AND build a D'lite from scratch!
Thanks
Whit
Sounds like overkill, but what's wrong with that . The OT is in fact a great choice for a Dumble. If you want to drop if to 50 watts just double the impedance load and remove 2 tubes.
Bob-I wrote:Sounds like overkill, but what's wrong with that . The OT is in fact a great choice for a Dumble. If you want to drop if to 50 watts just double the impedance load and remove 2 tubes.
Unless you're using it for 6V6s. Then you would need to use 4 tubes w/ double the impedance load, or use 2 tubes and quadruple the impedance load. (4 6V6 = 8 ohm load. 2 6V6 = 16 ohm load.) Many seem to have reported that the JJ 6V6s can take the voltage, up to 500V on the plates. You will need to control/constrain the screen voltage, though, if you go the 6V6 route.
Dogears would say, though, that the target D-tone for most is not found in 6V6s, but in 6L6s. Given that, I completely concur with Bob-I in his recommendation.
Wife: How many amps do you need?
Me: Just one more...
My 50 watt 6L6 and EL34 amps, either HRM or non-HRM, both sound way better at all volumes than any 6V6 clone I have heard. The low volume argument is just not true. These are predominantly master volume amps and the biggest difference between 6V6 and 6L6/EL34 tubes, besides the 6L6/EL34 sounding better, is that the 6V6 breaks up so soon you can never get any reasonable clean headroom. I would never ever recommend 6V6 unless you already have a couple of 6L6 or EL34 amps. Don't do it first.
What he said. Just not enough headroom for the clean channel . Now if all you want to do is rawk at low volume..... But, that really isn't rockin' then. Is it?
P.S. LOVE my D'Lite. Just love it way more with 6L6's. And was so easy with the kit iron and bias pot to change to alternate tube types.
Someone posted here something about a guitar player by the name of Joe Bonamassa, who is now a major recent discovery for me ... his sound on many recordings is excellent, as well as his playing and style.
Now, he states that he uses some butique overdrive amplifier that, according to his words ¨does that Fender Twin clean overdrive very good¨.
I wander which of these Dumble circuits would do that best? Meaning that I really do not like distorted sounds as they appear on some Santana-like, Carlton-like clips on this forum, but, rather, the clean sound with ¨an edge¨ (a ¨bit of hair¨ on the tone), as most often heard on Bonamassa recordings.
It seems that it would be either 6L6 or EL34 amplifier, while I wander would it really be HRM at all, or, rather, a non-HRM type of Hybrid A amplifier, here?! Also, would it be an amp that has 100k resistors on CL1 and CL2 plates? It seems to be that way.
What am I saying? Well, I would like to build an ODS amp on the line of what is being discussed and presented here, but that amp should not sound like amps used by such guitarsits as Larry Carlton (that type of music is ¨elevator music¨ for me ... with all due respect towards people who like that style) or Carlos Santana. My preferrence goes towards sounds of Danny Gatton, Brian Setzer, Rory Gallagher, three guitar players from Hellecasters, ... and, of course, this young chap Joe Bonamassa. In other words, clean sounds with an edge, with some good crunch and 3D chording and riffing depth. No ¨heavy metal¨ distortion, definitely, no Carlos Santana and such ...
Which specific amp schematics/layout should one consider on this forum for that type of sound? Once again I return to the statement of Joe Bonamassa, cited above ....
dogears wrote:My 50 watt 6L6 and EL34 amps, either HRM or non-HRM, both sound way better at all volumes than any 6V6 clone I have heard. The low volume argument is just not true. These are predominantly master volume amps and the biggest difference between 6V6 and 6L6/EL34 tubes, besides the 6L6/EL34 sounding better, is that the 6V6 breaks up so soon you can never get any reasonable clean headroom. I would never ever recommend 6V6 unless you already have a couple of 6L6 or EL34 amps. Don't do it first.
Scott,
What would be your best recommendations for new 6L6 tubes and NOS 6l6 tubes to obtain the very best "dumblish" tone? If you feel that the 6l6 provides the best tone, then you must have some favorite tubes. Any sharing would be most welcome.
I am perfectly happy with either the TAD short bottles or the SED "winged C". Not the Reflektor ones.
Fwiw, I have been on a KT77/EL34 kick lately. With the Bluesmaster PI/Presence watch out!!
secretriches wrote:
dogears wrote:My 50 watt 6L6 and EL34 amps, either HRM or non-HRM, both sound way better at all volumes than any 6V6 clone I have heard. The low volume argument is just not true. These are predominantly master volume amps and the biggest difference between 6V6 and 6L6/EL34 tubes, besides the 6L6/EL34 sounding better, is that the 6V6 breaks up so soon you can never get any reasonable clean headroom. I would never ever recommend 6V6 unless you already have a couple of 6L6 or EL34 amps. Don't do it first.
Scott,
What would be your best recommendations for new 6L6 tubes and NOS 6l6 tubes to obtain the very best "dumblish" tone? If you feel that the 6l6 provides the best tone, then you must have some favorite tubes. Any sharing would be most welcome.
Scott, if you were going to focus on warm cleans or just slightly broken up sounds for gospel and jazz (mercy mercy mercy type stuff, not smooth jazz), would you go with the TADs or Winged C's?
JamesO wrote:Scott, if you were going to focus on warm cleans or just slightly broken up sounds for gospel and jazz (mercy mercy mercy type stuff, not smooth jazz), would you go with the TADs or Winged C's?
sorry ta bump, but winged C`s, the tads are SAMOOTH....the C`s got some bite..
Sven wrote:Greetings,
What am I saying? Well, I would like to build an ODS amp on the line of what is being discussed and presented here, but that amp should not sound like amps used by such guitarsits as Larry Carlton (that type of music is ¨elevator music¨ for me ... with all due respect towards people who like that style) or Carlos Santana. My preferrence goes towards sounds of Danny Gatton, Brian Setzer, Rory Gallagher, three guitar players from Hellecasters, ... and, of course, this young chap Joe Bonamassa. In other words, clean sounds with an edge, with some good crunch and 3D chording and riffing depth. No ¨heavy metal¨ distortion, definitely, no Carlos Santana and such ...
Hi Sven,
As you may have read in this forum Larry Carlton is one of the most typical epitomes of the early ODS sound (non-HRM), as are Sonny Landreth and Rick Vito. I would not include Carlos Santana in this list as he is a Mesa Boogie player and almost always has been. I find his tone to be very dark and midrangey. The ODS designs are midrangey but not dark and still have a lot of harmonic content. Non-HRM is more midrangey to my ears than HRM.
Rory Gallagher usually played a combination of Fender Twin and Vox AC 30 together with a treble booster. Whole different game than ODS. My guess is that the other players quoted are Fender players. Joe Bonamassa always uses at least 2 amps in parallel, one of them is a Marshall Jubilee head. Since the ODS is in fact a design which evolved from a Fender you probably could get closest to what you want with an amp with just the ODS clean channel (provided that you are not restricted volume-wise). If volume is an issue, I believe the HRM version would suit your taste better. The schematics are all in the files section.
Thanks a lot for this excellent elaboration! It touches the very essence of this quest, indeed. My reference point during several couple of months of studying and somewhat participating on this Web page, became sound of a non-HRM amplifier built by ¨mat¨ (schematics and layout not available, or at least not clear what they really are?) as presented by his sound clip named ¨sloppy 96¨. It has that clean sound with an added distortion that is smooth and very ¨elegant¨ in its blend with noticeable clean guitar sound shining through.
Having heard HRM clips on this forum, a thought appeared to me that the original designer, Mr. Dumble, actually must have tried to ¨tame¨ and control, SHAPE, ... the performance of the OD1 and OD2 pre-amp stages.
I was particularly impressed (it ¨rang a bell¨) by a recent comment made by a participant -- ¨plexi_'67¨ who seems to be a person with amazing knowledge of valve amplifiers, and good taste to boot -- that he made an amp for Joe Bonamassa that sounds good with the CLEAN channel that has been additionally tweaked to have some Marshall ¨plexi¨ overdrive type of sound added to it. That seems to be the ticket, at least on the lines of this particula quest: Dumble type circuit that sounds good in clean mode (CL1 and CL2 preamp stages) with an option to get a bit of ¨crunch¨ when driven a bit ¨harder¨ in CL mode ... with an additional option, furthermore, to regulate how hard the overall amp output drive is, by inclusion of a blended-in sound from the OD1 and OD2 per-amp stages (whether they are non-HRM or HRM, which still iz a bit of a puzzle here, since non-HRM and HRM distincition has not yet been clearly demonstrated via sound clips, yet ... at least what I found here).
After 2-3 months of studying this Web page, the sound ¨picture¨ is clearer, but still some more research is absolutely needed. By the way, I listened very carefully to the Robben Ford tunes, since people on this forum seem to like that guitar player very much (and they are absolutely RIGHT ON!). His sound is truly AMAZING ! I only wander what are exact Dumble amp(s?) he played when those recordings were made ???!!! It is hard to describe that sound, really, but it seems that no clips presented here seem to capture THAT sound, yet (I did not listen to all the available clips, so it is possible that I am wrong on this issue). What Dumble amp(s) did he play? HRM or non-HRM, which output valves (6V6, 6L6 or EL34 ?) were used, and so on and so forth .... ?
All the best, and thanks again. Input from other participants is welcome.
I've read your posts and I recommend (just my opinion...) trying a HRM style V1a/b circuit into a HRM or the non-HRM OD (your call...) into the marshall style phase inverter with a 100k nfb resistor. Use the newer style powersupply and 4xEL-34's. Speakers make or break the amps sound and response....I even like greenbacks, some versions though...
By the way, I listened very carefully to the Robben Ford tunes, since people on this forum seem to like that guitar player very much (and they are absolutely RIGHT ON!). His sound is truly AMAZING ! I only wander what are exact Dumble amp(s?) he played when those recordings were made ???!!! It is hard to describe that sound, really, but it seems that no clips presented here seem to capture THAT sound, yet (I did not listen to all the available clips, so it is possible that I am wrong on this issue).
I know it's been said before, but Dumble style amps are VERY responsive to the player. Most of what you're hearing when RF plays is RF.
I had the opportunity to play a Fuchs-modded Bassman that Scott Lerner tuned to perfection. Scott's clips were amazingly Ford-like. The amp was owned by Greg Williams, who also has the ability to pull some great RF tones out of an amp. However, when I played the amp, it wasn't even close to RF tone. I even used Greg's guitar and pick!
FWIW, Scott Lerner has spent the last five years breathing solder fumes and tweaking amps in his basement just to perfect the tone. If you really want to get THAT tone, you're going to have to build a baseline amp and follow the same path...albeit shorter since Scott has been so generous with his findings.
Normster wrote:FWIW, Scott Lerner has spent the last five years breathing solder fumes and tweaking amps in his basement just to perfect the tone. If you really want to get THAT tone, you're going to have to build a baseline amp and follow the same path...albeit shorter since Scott has been so generous with his findings.
+1 for Scott!! Fantastic player, fantastic amp builder/tuner, fantastic ears, fantastic knowledge of all things D-tone. So helpful, so generous. I really appreciate him, he's helped me a LOT.
Wife: How many amps do you need?
Me: Just one more...
) sound more like a really killer 18 watt Marshall clone than a Dumble. It sounds like where the 50/100 watt clones are all about pre-amp clipping, these are a combination of preamp and output tube clipping. Bottom line, I am loving this sound and although I am very pleased with my 50 watt HRM, I am thinking I also want the sound this little beast has to offer. Also, due in large part to this forum, I am re-thinking my prejudice against 1-12" combos that I picked up after years of hating the sound of a Boogie 1-12" combo. I am finally off of that soapbox.
