Too many *mble versions for me...

[snyder80]

Hi folks!

I am reading this awesome board for a long time but now i think its time for me to get my hands on some kind of *umble clone..

Only problem is: Too much information and different opinions around here...
So maybe some of you could help me out to find the *umble-version that would suit best to me.

Clean channel with low vol. setting: sparkly highs but full sounding in the midrange with my strat. So i like some upper-mids.

Clean channel with vol. quite high: more crunch than clean but still defined sound. High can be still sprakling without sounding harsh.

Clean @full and PAB: Nearly classic rock american crunch sounds, cleaning up with the guitars vol.

The amp gets a PPIMV, so there is no need to be an "authentic" umble- #Rev-Design.

Voltages will be at ~190-200 V CL1/2-pins, ~230-240 V PI-pins.

So do i need High/low plate CL, Classic/Skyliner EQ, or should i have a look at the BM type of amp?

Would be nice if you could help me out in my decision...

[Bob-I]

Clean channel with low vol. setting: sparkly highs but full sounding in the midrange with my strat. So i like some upper-mids.

Dumble's really have nice clean channels. I especially like the high plate blues master cleans. They don't sparkle like a Fender, and you don't get a ton of high mids, mostly low mids.

Clean channel with vol. quite high: more crunch than clean but still defined sound. High can be still sprakling without sounding harsh.

Needs to be VERY loud to get this.

Clean @full and PAB: Nearly classic rock american crunch sounds, cleaning up with the guitars vol.

Listen to Larry Carlton, he does this a lot. I wouldn't call this classic Fender tone.

The amp gets a PPIMV, so there is no need to be an "authentic" umble- #Rev-Design.

Forget that. PPIMV sounds like ass with a Dumble ckt. The key to the Dumble tone is really REALLY clean PI and power amp until it's pushed to max.

Voltages will be at ~190-200 V CL1/2-pins, ~230-240 V PI-pins.

Seems low on the PI.

So do i need High/low plate CL, Classic/Skyliner EQ, or should i have a look at the BM type of amp?

Would be nice if you could help me out in my decision...

Well, it's still hard to say. You're not really going for the classic Dumble tone so you're kinda on your own here. You might just want to experiment. Start with a high plate skyliner (IMHO) and try some modifications from there.

JMO

[Structo]

I'd probably recommend a high plate ODS with a .05uF mid cap.
That will gear it towards a strat better.
But having gone through all that and being a strat player, I have to say I play mostly a humbucker now with the ODS amp.

These amps can be a tweakers paradise or nightmare depending how you look at it.

I built a Brown Note D'lite 50w but I have changed the amp so much it really doesn't resemble that amp much anymore.

The cleans are pretty good and will start getting some hair on it when turned up.

The thing you have to realize, with these amps, the overdrive and distortion is coming from the preamp.
The master is pre PI so the amp keeps the PI and power amp fairly clean.

So a lot of guys build the 100w version as it just sounds bigger without being louder due to the excellent master volume on these amps.

Of course the 50w will not have as much clean headroom as the 100w.

I don't think you are going to get much of a crunch tone with clean+PAB.
The PAB just lifts the bass and treble tone pots out of circuit so there is less loss occurring, thus it makes it louder.
On my amp it sounds kind of like the upper mids are boosted when in PAB.

Something else to consider is that these amps really need a Dumbleator to reach their full tonal ability. Especially if you want to run reverb and delay.
I didn't build mine until a year or so later after building the amp. So you can get by without it. But once you have it you will know what is said about them.

Even with no effects, the D'lator adds to the tone.
WHat you do is set up the amp the way you want it to sound then control the overall loudness with the D'lator Output pot as a sort of Master volume.

There are a lot of tweaks you can do to these amps to personalize them to your style and taste. If you have good ears and patience, you can have your dream amp with one of these.

THe HRM amps employ a separate tone stack for the overdrive channel so so you have the added control of the OD tone stack to further customize the tone, especially if you use PAB with the OD. This stack is usually located inside the amp and uses trimmer pots to adjust.
Some guys put full sized pots on the front panel.

The Bluesmaster is supposedly more geared towards a Marshall tone, not as clean as the ODS.

Hopefully I haven't added to the confusion.

[boldaslove6789]

Dumble's really have nice clean channels. I especially like the high plate blues master cleans. They don't sparkle like a Fender, and you don't get a ton of high mids, mostly low mids.

I agree!

My amp is a 100w high plate/Skyliner HRM/ with the Bluesmaster PI and I can get slightly Carlton' esque cleans even with a Strat w/ underwound pups. Although I prefer buckers with most D-amps I've played there is much versatility to be had out of this configuration. I can't vouch for any other style d-amp but I can tell you that if you have no problem with a bit of dirtiness the BM may be for you.

Here's a bunch of clips of my amp:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GDClarkProject

[ayan]

I would agree with the 1st sentence, and indeed that was my preferred configuration for many years. I switched to the 100K Skyliner configuration and found that it could almost duplicate the sounds I liked out of the Classic high plate amp, but that it had the option of adding a fatter humbuker sound if needed. I would start here; I didn't start here myself but this is where I ended... and I play a Strat besides Gibsons.

Gil

I'd probably recommend a high plate ODS with a .05uF mid cap.
That will gear it towards a strat better.
But having gone through all that and being a strat player, I have to say I play mostly a humbucker now with the ODS amp.

These amps can be a tweakers paradise or nightmare depending how you look at it.

I built a Brown Note D'lite 50w but I have changed the amp so much it really doesn't resemble that amp much anymore.

The cleans are pretty good and will start getting some hair on it when turned up.

The thing you have to realize, with these amps, the overdrive and distortion is coming from the preamp.
The master is pre PI so the amp keeps the PI and power amp fairly clean.

So a lot of guys build the 100w version as it just sounds bigger without being louder due to the excellent master volume on these amps.

Of course the 50w will not have as much clean headroom as the 100w.

I don't think you are going to get much of a crunch tone with clean+PAB.
The PAB just lifts the bass and treble tone pots out of circuit so there is less loss occurring, thus it makes it louder.
On my amp it sounds kind of like the upper mids are boosted when in PAB.

Something else to consider is that these amps really need a Dumbleator to reach their full tonal ability. Especially if you want to run reverb and delay.
I didn't build mine until a year or so later after building the amp. So you can get by without it. But once you have it you will know what is said about them.

Even with no effects, the D'lator adds to the tone.
WHat you do is set up the amp the way you want it to sound then control the overall loudness with the D'lator Output pot as a sort of Master volume.

There are a lot of tweaks you can do to these amps to personalize them to your style and taste. If you have good ears and patience, you can have your dream amp with one of these.

THe HRM amps employ a separate tone stack for the overdrive channel so so you have the added control of the OD tone stack to further customize the tone, especially if you use PAB with the OD. This stack is usually located inside the amp and uses trimmer pots to adjust.
Some guys put full sized pots on the front panel.

The Bluesmaster is supposedly more geared towards a Marshall tone, not as clean as the ODS.

Hopefully I haven't added to the confusion.

[Max]

Would be nice if you could help me out in my decision...

Hi synder80,

one possibility would perhaps be to use the "Dumble reference thread":

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 06&start=0

Perhaps you hear some guitar tones that you like. If this should be the case, you then could perhaps refer here to the clips you liked best: Clean sound of this clip, crunch tone of this one, singing lead like here etc. IMO such a kind of "reference" for a start could perhaps help to avoid misunderstandings in regard to your personal taste.

But IMO some caution is perhaps needed anyway in this matter:

Some of the answers in this thread imply that there is a certain and perhaps even obvious relationship between the circuit of an amp ("low plate skyline" as an example) and how it sounds in a musical context, be it on stage or on record: "If you like a tone like this, then start with circuit X."

But I have more and more doubts that this is really the case. Why?

If there really would be a certain or even obvious relationship between a specific circuit and the resulting tone on stage or on record, this would obviously not only be a one way road. If there really would be an obvious relationship between circuit and tone it should be possible not only to identfy the appropriate circuit by the tone someone describes or points at, but to identify the kind of circuit by listening to the resulting tone, the music on stage or on records, too. But this seems to be rather impossible in a meaningful way.

Just go through this "Dumble reference" thread and notice how hard it obviously is to even discern very different "circuits" just by listening to the resulting music – let’s say a SSS and an Overdrive Reverb Special (Lowell George) or a SSS and a Marshall or Fender (Eric Johnson), to name only two of many more examples in this "reference thread".

Because of this I got more and more suspicious that the idea of an obvious relationship between circuit and tone may be just a well spreaded prejudice and I made some kind of an "experiment" regarding this in the "The Blinded Chinese Rap" thread: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 960#133960

I posted a recorded guitar track and asked: "What specific kind of amp or modeling device, or at least what brand and decade of production, is this?"

Result up to now:

After more than 500 views and more than 100 downloads of the recorded guitar track not one of the members here who listened to this guitar track was able to even make an educated guess regarding the brand or decade of production or even if it is an amp or a modelling device - let alone something really specific like "Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+" or something like this.

So perhaps all these recommendations of at least such a specific kind like "If you want this tone on stage or on record you should choose this circuit" are probably just prejudices. Otherwise someone who recommends things like this IMO would be able to solve my "riddle" (at least in its "which brand, which decade of production?" version) with ease.

Cheers,

Max

[markusw]

I would agree with the 1st sentence, and indeed that was my preferred configuration for many years. I switched to the 100K Skyliner configuration and found that it could almost duplicate the sounds I liked out of the Classic high plate amp, but that it had the option of adding a fatter humbuker sound if needed. I would start here; I didn't start here myself but this is where I ended... and I play a Strat besides Gibsons.

Gil

Hi Gil,

if you had to take one amp along with only your Strat (or one of your Strats ) to "the island" would you take your 100k/Skyliner or your Classic/High plate ?
Sorry for the stereotyped question.

Best regards,

Markus

[Max]

Hi all,

here are some examples for my observation that it seems to be rather impossible to discern for sure just from listening to the resulting music what kind of amp is played, let alone specific things like "high plate skyline":

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 623#130623
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 815#131815
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 769#131769
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 636#134636
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 554#132554
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 327#127327
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 785#132785
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 785#132785
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 034#130034

Because of this I think people should perhaps be a bit more cautious with recommendations like: "If you like a kind of guitar tone similar to the one in this Santana TV show you should go for a 1st generation ODS50W" or something like this.

Another example or "experiment":

Here is a video of Robben Ford playing a strat (RF starting to step out in a solo part around 4:30) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtIJ017JpIE

Now let us assume the question of markusw would have been: "What amp would you recommend to get this kind of strat sound like in this RF video?" Now my opinion is that someone who is not completely sure just from listening to this video what RF uses here, the Marshall, his Dumble or both of them, should perhaps be very cautious with such a kind of recommendation. Or do you think different and if so, why?

Cheers,

Max

[snyder80]

First of all, thank you for your replys.

@ structo:
Well its good to know the d-lator seems to be essential for gainy d tones.

Well maybe the rawer BM would be much more in the ballpark for me, because i dont realy want that "elevator"-jazzy tone many members in this board love - sorry, it wasnt ment to be offending

But also the 2rock designs are be interesting. Because they seem to be very variable soundwise ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5AvdsOzR_0 )

With my original post i actually wanted to know your experience in tweaking the clean channel to be as much as variable as possible (from "dumbly" HiFi clean to "fendery" sprakle clean and also some slight crunch from the clean channel preamp stages at higher settings.

@ Max:
except for infos on ie. amp´s earlier breakup, and how it accomplishes in the mix, and general sound infos all YT videos are nearly useless.
So much old and bad qualitiy videos, YT is not a real sound archive to me.

Ie. search for Marshall JTM or Vox AC30 and youll get tons of vids and nearly each one will sound different some good and a lot bad sounding "cellphone cammed" videos.
And the sound in the good quality vids often is eq´d or "mastered".
The same applies to the most studio records.

At least the videos/sound is compressed/decoded so that alters the tone, too.

[Max]

@ Max:
except for infos on ie. amp´s earlier breakup, and how it accomplishes in the mix, and general sound infos all YT videos are nearly useless.
So much old and bad qualitiy videos, YT is not a real sound archive to me.

Ie. search for Marshall JTM or Vox AC30 and youll get tons of vids and nearly each one will sound different some good and a lot bad sounding "cellphone cammed" videos.
And the sound in the good quality vids often is eq´d or "mastered".
The same applies to the most studio records.

At least the videos/sound is compressed/decoded so that alters the tone, too.

Hi snyder80,

AFAIK most of these songs are available in high audio quality too and without paying a fortune. And at least some of them could perhaps even be found in the CD and DVD collection of the girl you date: "Could we perhaps listen to some of your Eros Ramazzotti CDs after dinner?"

But the girl you date may perhaps not know that you listen to ODS #075 when you listen to this song: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... id=9227366

But this "knows" the "Dumble reference thread". Isn't this great?

Cheers,

Max

[llemtt]

"incredibile!" (-> unbelievable)

Max, I suppose that was recorded somewere in USA, in case you know is Eros actually playing #075?

Years ago some friends of mine were close to Eros but never get in touch with him, anyway if I'll ever met them again I'll ask the question..

cheers
teo

[Max]

"incredibile!" (-> unbelievable)

Max, I suppose that was recorded somewere in USA, in case you know is Eros actually playing #075?

Years ago some friends of mine were close to Eros but never get in touch with him, anyway if I'll ever met them again I'll ask the question..

cheers
teo

Hi Teo,

thanks for your kind offer to find out more about this. But I fear that Eros Ramazzotti may perhaps not remember what amp Steve Farris used for his guitar tracks. If the vocal tracks have been recorded in Italy and the guitar tracks in LA, it may even be, that the two never met in person.

But let me explain how you can perhaps nevertheless find out the truth:

Around ten years ago a guy called Andy Brauer, the former owner of "Andy Brauer Studio Rentals" in Los Angeles, sold the Overdrive Special with the series # 075 on behalf of Steve Farris at eBay. Now please visit this website: http://www.roblivesey.com/dumble/ There you find a list of many Dumble amps including #075.

Now please click on #075 in this list. Then you’ll see all the information that was given by Andy Brauer in the item description of the eBay auction. On one of the pictures you find a list with all the artist for whose recordings according to Andy Brauer Steve Farris has used this amp.

Here you find three websites with credits regarding Steve Farris and "Cose Della Vita": http://www.discogs.com/Eros-Ramazzotti- ... ase/674272 http://users.skynet.be/sky67891/bio-stevefarris.htm http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/a ... 94,00.html

As you see, the guitar parts have been played by two studio players, Phil Palmer and Steve Farris.

Now if you shouldn’t perceive something like a "Dumble tone" on one or even some of the guitar tracks, this may perhaps have several reasons:

- There is no Dumble on this record.
- There is one on this record, but my theory, that it is difficult to recognize a Dumble amp just from listening to a CD (let alone a certain kind of tone stack), is perhaps valid.

As you seem to be motivated to find out the truth, this could be done by some research IMO. Steve Farris lives in Nashville AFAIK and you will probably find himself or his booking agent by a Google search. If you don't succeed, ask again here and I’ll try to help.

Here are all the contact data you need to call Andy Brauer. http://www.andybrauer.com/repairs.html

He is not hard to reach in his shop. So perhaps you will already be able to post some news here today or tomorrow. He will be able too, to tell you how to get in contact with Steve Farris.

And Please, Please, Please: don’t forget to ask Andy Brauer and/or Steve Farris on which tracks of which records Eric Clapton, Mark Knopfler and David Williams used ODS # 075 as Andy has told in an interview that has been published in this magazine: http://www.guitar-dreams.de/5686.0.html ... 7333298efd

Thanks a lot again for your kind offer to find out the truth regarding ODS #075 and "Cose Della Vita".

All the best and have a nice day,

Max