Blues Deluxe to ODS #183 Thread

[JD0x0]

One more point, with these minute comparisons of different parts of the same values, you have to have really developed hearing to the point your ears kind of 'know' what to look for. I think Jelle is one of those people who are really honed in and knows what to listen for when selecting parts in that manner. I don't think all humans have that ability.

I like to think I have pretty developed hearing and I can definitely hear things like 6PS sounding different as a signal cap compared to 715P but, personally, I can't see myself being able to hear the difference between a diamond cut RN65D and a Laser cut one. I don't doubt there's some sort of perceivable difference, but that's starting to get to a point, for me, that it's so subtle I wouldn't be able to confidentially say one was 'better' than the other and I probably wouldn't want to go through the trouble of tracking down and paying for such a minute difference in performance. FWIW, I did hear a difference in that resistor thread that went up recently, but I really couldn't say one was 'better' than the other. Both had pleasant qualities to them, and the differences could've more than likely been compensated for by a slight tweak of the amp's tone controls.

[pompeiisneaks]

One more point, with these minute comparisons of different parts of the same values, you have to have really developed hearing to the point your ears kind of 'know' what to look for. I think Jelle is one of those people who are really honed in and knows what to listen for when selecting parts in that manner. I don't think all humans have that ability.

I like to think I have pretty developed hearing and I can definitely hear things like 6PS sounding different as a signal cap compared to 715P but, personally, I can't see myself being able to hear the difference between a diamond cut RN65D and a Laser cut one. I don't doubt there's some sort of perceivable difference, but that's starting to get to a point, for me, that it's so subtle I wouldn't be able to confidentially say one was 'better' than the other and I probably wouldn't want to go through the trouble of tracking down and paying for such a minute difference in performance. FWIW, I did hear a difference in that resistor thread that went up recently, but I really couldn't say one was 'better' than the other. Both had pleasant qualities to them, and the differences could've more than likely been compensated for by a slight tweak of the amp's tone controls.

I agree with your assessment of the demo, I also felt both sounded incredible and I could tell there was a difference, but neither sounded 'bad' just 'different'. I loved the tone on both.

As far as that hearing goes, I've said it before, being in a War in Iraq plays hell on subtle hearing. I just got my VA Disability raised to 50% partly from my hearing loss

so I KNOW I can't hear as well as many can, my losses are in the higher frequencies, which is probably the area that is more accented by a lot of these kinds of tweaks.

~Phil

[Charlie Wilson]

This is not directed at Phil but I think it is as good any a place to say this. This forum, at least in part, I thought, is about looking at and discussing the amps that Dumble actually built. Part of, and I think a big part, is the specific components that he used. Not ones that look kind of similar but the actual components. It is irrelevant(in this context) whether someone prefers a new production look alike or that someone thinks they aren't worth the effort to obtain for their particular build. It is simply that they are the actual parts in real Dumble amplifiers. Some people and I am one of them, believe that Dumble was very aware of the sonic characteristics of the various components and the effect they have in the circuit. He is very consistent with the parts he used. Can you build a Dumble with new production parts and have a great sounding amp? Sure you can and many of the builds on this site demonstrate that. For some of us, however, we are trying to get as close as we can to building amps that are close to what actual Dumbles sound like and using the same components is a big part of that.
CW

[rootz]

One more point, with these minute comparisons of different parts of the same values, you have to have really developed hearing to the point your ears kind of 'know' what to look for. I think Jelle is one of those people who are really honed in and knows what to listen for when selecting parts in that manner. I don't think all humans have that ability.

I like to think I have pretty developed hearing and I can definitely hear things like 6PS sounding different as a signal cap compared to 715P but, personally, I can't see myself being able to hear the difference between a diamond cut RN65D and a Laser cut one. I don't doubt there's some sort of perceivable difference, but that's starting to get to a point, for me, that it's so subtle I wouldn't be able to confidentially say one was 'better' than the other and I probably wouldn't want to go through the trouble of tracking down and paying for such a minute difference in performance. FWIW, I did hear a difference in that resistor thread that went up recently, but I really couldn't say one was 'better' than the other. Both had pleasant qualities to them, and the differences could've more than likely been compensated for by a slight tweak of the amp's tone controls.

I agree with your assessment of the demo, I also felt both sounded incredible and I could tell there was a difference, but neither sounded 'bad' just 'different'. I loved the tone on both.

As far as that hearing goes, I've said it before, being in a War in Iraq plays hell on subtle hearing. I just got my VA Disability raised to 50% partly from my hearing loss

so I KNOW I can't hear as well as many can, my losses are in the higher frequencies, which is probably the area that is more accented by a lot of these kinds of tweaks.

~Phil

Looks like we are in the same boat Phill. I’ve got about 50% hearing loss, but that’s more a case of bad luck with genes. That being said, we might not be able to hear the most subtle differences in the higher frequencies, but we can very much judge the character of an amp. Much like we can judge the difference in character between a heritage g12m or a genuine one form say 1967. Another example: some years ago I heard a big comparison between 18 watt OT’s for 18 Watt Marshalls. I might not have heard all the tiny details. But some of the differences in complexity, feel and character couldn’t be missed. Sometimes it was night and day! Anyway, could I hear the difference between different resistors? Probably not.

Should you care? Possibly yes, if you are building a part for part clone to get as close as you can. I did that on a JTM50. That was not a cheap amp to build!

My latest uses mostly Dale plate resistors and Xicon cf’s For the rest of the amp (PS excluded). It sounds wicked, but not exactly like some other #124 demos I heard. Now does that matter to me? No! I did a complete amp makeover for under € 100,- (All the passives and the output tubes). That was a goal too.

[pompeiisneaks]

One more point, with these minute comparisons of different parts of the same values, you have to have really developed hearing to the point your ears kind of 'know' what to look for. I think Jelle is one of those people who are really honed in and knows what to listen for when selecting parts in that manner. I don't think all humans have that ability.

I like to think I have pretty developed hearing and I can definitely hear things like 6PS sounding different as a signal cap compared to 715P but, personally, I can't see myself being able to hear the difference between a diamond cut RN65D and a Laser cut one. I don't doubt there's some sort of perceivable difference, but that's starting to get to a point, for me, that it's so subtle I wouldn't be able to confidentially say one was 'better' than the other and I probably wouldn't want to go through the trouble of tracking down and paying for such a minute difference in performance. FWIW, I did hear a difference in that resistor thread that went up recently, but I really couldn't say one was 'better' than the other. Both had pleasant qualities to them, and the differences could've more than likely been compensated for by a slight tweak of the amp's tone controls.

I agree with your assessment of the demo, I also felt both sounded incredible and I could tell there was a difference, but neither sounded 'bad' just 'different'. I loved the tone on both.

As far as that hearing goes, I've said it before, being in a War in Iraq plays hell on subtle hearing. I just got my VA Disability raised to 50% partly from my hearing loss

so I KNOW I can't hear as well as many can, my losses are in the higher frequencies, which is probably the area that is more accented by a lot of these kinds of tweaks.

~Phil

Looks like we are in the same boat Phill. I’ve got about 50% hearing loss, but that’s more a case of bad luck with genes. That being said, we might not be able to hear the most subtle differences in the higher frequencies, but we can very much judge the character of an amp. Much like we can judge the difference in character between a heritage g12m or a genuine one form say 1967. Another example: some years ago I heard a big comparison between 18 watt OT’s for 18 Watt Marshalls. I might not have heard all the tiny details. But some of the differences in complexity, feel and character couldn’t be missed. Sometimes it was night and day! Anyway, could I hear the difference between different resistors? Probably not.

Should you care? Possibly yes, if you are building a part for part clone to get as close as you can. I did that on a JTM50. That was not a cheap amp to build!

My latest uses mostly Dale plate resistors and Xicon cf’s For the rest of the amp (PS excluded). It sounds wicked, but not exactly like some other #124 demos I heard. Now does that matter to me? No! I did a complete amp makeover for under € 100,- (All the passives and the output tubes). That was a goal too.

Cool, and yes that makes sense, I too believe I can tell when an amp 'talks to me' if you will. I definitely know I'm missing some things, but not others

~Phil

[talbany]

I definitely know I'm missing some things, but not others

So the question then becomes what am I missing and what can I do/replace/change/modify to fill that whatever that thing is that's missing. That's the trick isn't it. I used to think the same thing when I would hear clips of the original Dumble amps I was copying and still my amps sounded really nothing like Dumbles amps. What's missing?.
I don't know about the rest of you guy's but the reason why I started building them was I wanted that sound of 102!. Why else would you want to build one? It's looks or to just tell other people? yeah its got the same circuit as Robbens amp

As you all know by now there is a small group of builders here whom have taken the time and spent the money and did the empirical testing on most, if not all of the parts Dumble used and I can tell you the general consensus is we all believe if you want to get as close as you can to the sound of a particular amp then using the same type parts is your best chance of achieving this goal. So when you or anyone asks us about part-X of a Dumble we naturally assume you are chasing the sound of 183. (This would Jelle's response to you about the Dales). If your goal is to not get as close as possible and just build a reliable amp with high quality parts can't afford it and are not looking to get close that's cool! Then I would try to describe the sound your looking to get or tell us what's missing, aggressive or smooth or clear or scooped or mid heavy etc.. Etc., so we at least have a direction to go with when someone asks. Maybe we can help with that missing something

Working with Gil was great! Because he actually had a sound he wanted and was able to articulate it. He sent YouTube videos named artists and told us what he was hearing along the way. Gil didn't just take my word for it he worked with Jelle and I am sure there might have been some differences of an opinion. We sometimes double check with each other after doing these changes just to make sure we are not imagining things. Since he was able to articulate his sound in his head, it's just putting 2 and 2 together and match him up with the right parts (or what we think are the right parts).some worked out some didn't It's really that simple
No one is blessed with the golden set of ears. We just happen to be the ones who spent the time, money tracking this stuff down A/B and tested them shared or findings and built enough amps to form an opinion on how certain resistor types (NOS or Current Production)contribute to the overall sound of an amp (some are subtle some are real obvious) just like cap types.

CW is right those folks out there that have not done the empirical work and testing on all these resistors then your really adding no value to the conversation and just IMO speculating.
If your in the camp of I don't believe resistors can influence the sound in a guitar amp or just don't care need scientific proof then dont ask your mind is made up and that is perfectly fine then let those out there that do have an opinion give it to those that ask or are curious and want an opinion.
IMO this is the genius that is Dumble to be able to match the correct parts down to the right resistors (NOS or not) to get the sound he or his customers wanted. This is the main reason as to why his amps are so revered and respected with all the great players (and a bitch to copy),attention to all the little details.

Resistor Mafia

[pompeiisneaks]

Tony,

thanks, that definitely seems right to me. First, though, to qualify, my note of me 'missing something' was about my hearing making me NOT hear some of the subtleties that others can hear.

I'm also not chasing the tone of the 183 specifically, but wanted to build the circuit. The original project has the schematic setup with the Bluesmaster, but I figured I could and should build a different circuit in the same board/amp, to see how it comes out.

I get that these parts have their own specific sound, but as mentioned, I am not rich. I spent a bit more than was budgeted on the amp already, and realized, of course, that I've missed a few components, so I'm going to be going over yet again.

Part of the reason I've not built any amps for a while is due to funds.

not to go too deep but on top of chemo for our dog mallory that just passed a bit ago, as well as tons of other 'fun' life loves to throw at you, I've been tight for most of this year.

What fun

I'd love (and think I likely will, doing videos in the process) to come back to this type of parts swap in the near future.

Cheers,

~Phil

[talbany]

Tony,

thanks, that definitely seems right to me. First, though, to qualify, my note of me 'missing something' was about my hearing making me NOT hear some of the subtleties that others can hear.

I'm also not chasing the tone of the 183 specifically, but wanted to build the circuit. The original project has the schematic setup with the Bluesmaster, but I figured I could and should build a different circuit in the same board/amp, to see how it comes out.

I get that these parts have their own specific sound, but as mentioned, I am not rich. I spent a bit more than was budgeted on the amp already, and realized, of course, that I've missed a few components, so I'm going to be going over yet again.

Part of the reason I've not built any amps for a while is due to funds.

not to go too deep but on top of chemo for our dog mallory that just passed a bit ago, as well as tons of other 'fun' life loves to throw at you, I've been tight for most of this year.

What fun

I'd love (and think I likely will, doing videos in the process) to come back to this type of parts swap in the near future.

Cheers,

~Phil

Sorry about your Mallory!. I love Dogs and have always had one!
I get it as you have explained it in previous posts. So my post was only partially directed at you but mostly aimed at the garage in general and basically summarize what others might be thinking with respect to the whole parts debate which sometimes can get a bit heated looking at this from both sides of the fence sort of speak. Having been here since the beginning of the forum's inception have seen this go on time and time again. Hopefully, if people can see both sides of the thought process we can help make these discussions a bit more constructive and want to talk about them more often and in-depth. I think it's a fascinating topic and as you can tell enjoy discussing it.
I am Done! Good luck with the build!

Tony

[pompeiisneaks]

Here's the second video, me battling drilling things:




~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

Finally got to finish editing the next video. Spent a whole week fighting my video editing setup. I gave up, rebuilt a machine and re-paid for premiere pro. The damned BlackMagic Resolve just sucks.




~Phil

[JazzGuitarGimp]

Gotta love the PanaVise!

[pompeiisneaks]

Gotta love the PanaVise!

Yeah that thing is the bomb!

~Phil

[Synchu]

//Seriously off topic
I have nothing but praise for DaVinci Resolve, Phil Restored my faith in video editing after so many years. I even splurged for the studio version and can’t be happier.

Kudos for the videos - so entertaining and useful watch.

Niki

[pompeiisneaks]

//Seriously off topic
I have nothing but praise for DaVinci Resolve, Phil Restored my faith in video editing after so many years. I even splurged for the studio version and can’t be happier.

Kudos for the videos - so entertaining and useful watch.

Niki

I have had nothing but crashes since 16.0 came out and 16.1 was worse. I guess for me a company that calls a release as official (and not beta) that won't run, is a warning sign to me ;D

I spent a long time trying to learn the software, didn't get it yet, after several years of on and off tinkering, and this latest update was the end of it for me.

BUT your mileage obviously varies

Thanks for the comments on the video!

~Phil

[norburybrook]

//Seriously off topic
I have nothing but praise for DaVinci Resolve, Phil Restored my faith in video editing after so many years. I even splurged for the studio version and can’t be happier.

Kudos for the videos - so entertaining and useful watch.

Niki

I have had nothing but crashes since 16.0 came out and 16.1 was worse. I guess for me a company that calls a release as official (and not beta) that won't run, is a warning sign to me ;D

I spent a long time trying to learn the software, didn't get it yet, after several years of on and off tinkering, and this latest update was the end of it for me.

BUT your mileage obviously varies

Thanks for the comments on the video!

~Phil

Premiere Pro.. or the Elements version? for most people the elements version is plenty good enough.


M