Reprise NOS Old Dale RN65D vs NEW Dale RN65D

[pompeiisneaks]

Sorry I find all of this rather tedious and irritating. Nobody bother with NOS parts because they all sound just like new ones. That will leave more for Tony,Jelle,Gil, and I and all the other delusional people who think they can hear a difference. Having said that, I am glad Erwin likes them.
CW

You definitely don't have to read the thread if it's tedious and irritating, I'm honestly trying to listen and see if it influences my personal opinions. I don't think I've seen anyone on the thread, except you, implying you're delusional. This is one of the debates that will go on for ages. Nobody can prove it because it's financially unfeasible to create the science to prove it. Nobody want's to spend the money to create a true scientific test that can prove it one way or another. Couple that with the high amount of snake oil salespeople selling directional wire with cryogenically treated atoms or some other bs, it makes many people skeptical of something until they've found a means of justifying it. There are tons of people that agree with you, and don't mind paying extra for that.

If you relate it to taste in the tongue/nose, there are some people that have super sensitive palates and can detect massively minute flavor differences. That doesn't mean that they're crazy, or that the other people that can't taste/smell something are either. It means that some people will love a flavor and others hate it etc.

YMMV, my friend, but don't let others opinions make you feel like you need to double down on yours. All opinions that are not against common facts are valid. (note the qualifier, I strongly disagree that the earth is flat just because someone has an opinion that it is, the facts have refuted that for a very LONG time. )



~Phil

[drew]

If you relate it to taste in the tongue/nose, there are some people that have super sensitive palates and can detect massively minute flavor differences.

And that ability can be verified (or not) in double-blind testing - which is what Marcus, Erwin and Martin are at least starting to work toward.

[Charlie Wilson]

Phil, what I mean by tedious and irritating is not reading the thread but the effort going into trying to prove they sound the same, or don't sound the same? Maybe I am just a simpleton but when I build, I use my ears above everything else and I know for fact Dumble does also. Otherwise what is the point? Look I bought these resistors by sheer luck and I thought I would share a few for people to enjoy in their amps because I like the sound of them. I wasn't trying to prove anything one way or the other.
CW

[pompeiisneaks]

Makes sense.

I think there's obviously enough interest that others want to know.

~Phil

[talbany]

Phil, what I mean by tedious and irritating is not reading the thread but the effort going into trying to prove they sound the same, or don't sound the same? Maybe I am just a simpleton but when I build, I use my ears above everything else and I know for fact Dumble does also. Otherwise what is the point? Look I bought these resistors by sheer luck and I thought I would share a few for people to enjoy in their amps because I like the sound of them. I wasn't trying to prove anything one way or the other.
CW

Charlie
I get it!. I sent them to someone who didn't even bother to put them in an amp? ran some useless tests that have nothing to do with audio performance and is now apparently wanting to prove to everyone here on the garage that it must be a figment of my imagination. (wait it gets better) He is now concerned about "contaminated" results from test samples , demands controlled environment testing from other members and questions members here that actually can hear a difference, all the while refusing to listen to them for himself and are probably sitting somewhere at the bottom of his junk resistor drawer So yeah it's a little irritating!
Tony

[norburybrook]

Ok, then can you tell us the points where it flips from 1 to 2 and back then? I'll give you a clue there are 21 1 to 2 flips throughout

Listening on headphones, at around 00:12 and 00:18, I can hear a slight disturbance in the sound stream - are these edit points?

Yes, my bad < i had to rush this on a day off yesterday so that slipped through the net, Erwin pointed that out to me, but I'm on the road and had to do it on my surface pro tablet and manually line the files up sample accurate across all the different clips and messed that one slightly. I don't think it alters things though. The main idea was to provide a 'Blind' test , which really is the best way to do this so even the originator of the recordings doesn't know which is which as obviously he' or she can bias things (sic) knowingly or unknowingly with a loaded word etc.

After the last thread I'm not going to comment on any of this but will reply to questions of course and in a few days post the picture of the 1-2 edit session you people can see.

If you listen to the original files then my files it's easy to say which one my file starts with as they were slightly different in the recording envelope, one fades in slightly.


M

[martin manning]

Phil, what I mean by tedious and irritating is not reading the thread but the effort going into trying to prove they sound the same, or don't sound the same? Maybe I am just a simpleton but when I build, I use my ears above everything else and I know for fact Dumble does also. Otherwise what is the point? Look I bought these resistors by sheer luck and I thought I would share a few for people to enjoy in their amps because I like the sound of them. I wasn't trying to prove anything one way or the other.
CW

Charlie
I get it!. I sent them to someone who didn't even bother to put them in an amp? ran some useless tests that have nothing to do with audio performance and is now apparently wanting to prove to everyone here on the garage that it must be a figment of my imagination. (wait it gets better) He is now concerned about "contaminated" results from test samples , demands controlled environment testing from other members and questions members here that actually can hear a difference, all the while refusing to listen to them for himself and are probably sitting somewhere at the bottom of his junk resistor drawer So yeah it's a little irritating!
Tony

Tony, don’t worry, the resistors you sent are safe. I appreciate your sending them, but I’ll be returning them shortly. I’ve explained my approach to this elsewhere but, let me summarize:

1) I wanted to do a very specific test where just the four plate resistors on V1 and V2 were replaced with NOS of the same value (within the marked 1% tolerance), and further, in such a way that an A-B type listening test could be performed. Changing a whole bunch of resistors at once is just going to confuse things, and the values of the plate resistors you sent are not available in new production. I’m just not going to let either of those variable into the test. Erwin and Marcus are now doing the limited test with resistors provided by Charlie (thanks for doing that, CW!), so let's see what we can learn there.

2) If there is a real change in the sound, there has to be a physical reason for it, and that would have to be due to some difference in the electrical properties of the resistors, such as capacitance, inductance, or voltage dependence of the resistive material. I measured those things and found no significant difference (except the marked resistance value). Some published data (Blencowe) comparing the distortion + noise of CC, CF, and MF resistors shows that the absolute level for MF resistors is extremely low. All this says that MF resistors are not likely to contribute anything to sound quality, and that there is nothing peculiar about the old ones.

3) I believe that HAD used precision metal film Ra and Rk resistors for their low noise, accuracy, and stability, which provided very tight control over the operating points of the preamp tubes. In Gil’s resistor makeover thread, I looked into the distortion effects of the operating point at the same and different plate resistor values, and found that there is a strong effect, which supports that idea.

[talbany]

Phil, what I mean by tedious and irritating is not reading the thread but the effort going into trying to prove they sound the same, or don't sound the same? Maybe I am just a simpleton but when I build, I use my ears above everything else and I know for fact Dumble does also. Otherwise what is the point? Look I bought these resistors by sheer luck and I thought I would share a few for people to enjoy in their amps because I like the sound of them. I wasn't trying to prove anything one way or the other.
CW

Charlie
I get it!. I sent them to someone who didn't even bother to put them in an amp? ran some useless tests that have nothing to do with audio performance and is now apparently wanting to prove to everyone here on the garage that it must be a figment of my imagination. (wait it gets better) He is now concerned about "contaminated" results from test samples , demands controlled environment testing from other members and questions members here that actually can hear a difference, all the while refusing to listen to them for himself and are probably sitting somewhere at the bottom of his junk resistor drawer So yeah it's a little irritating!
Tony

Tony, don’t worry, the resistors you sent are safe. I appreciate your sending them, but I’ll be returning them shortly.

Great
I already have several other members asking me for yours so they will be put to good use!. Looking forward to getting them back
BTW. I sent you a bunch of others to try. If your not going to use them as well I would appreciate it if you would send those along too.
Tony

[erwin_ve]

Guys Im putting a end here.
My main concern was; can you hear a difference?
Im hearing it( not everywhere but certain points are very clear) and I'm excited about the result I got with the old ones.

I'm missing the point of true exploration what it might be and hopefully a good discussion. Reffering to old data sheets and measurements don't help in what it actually might be.
Just as some people claim they don't hear any difference in ceramics, some data showed up and it is a proven fact that there is difference for those caps. Would it be a valid argument if there wasn't any data too prove because no one did something to prove it?

Checking the original audio clips in ProTools show some interesting stuff:
Both resistors have the same transient at a strong pick attack but right after that transient the output is compressed on the old ones.
The new ones don't have that compression after the transient.
What is it? Hopefully food for thought!

BTW; Old Dales is RN65Da file, new dales is RN65D1 file.

Erwin

[Bombacaototal]

As I had to go back here is the summary:

Sample 1 is the DaleRN65Da file = Old Dales
Sample 2 is the DaleRN65D1 file = New Dales

[stelligan]

BTW; Old Dales is RN65Da file, new dales is RN65D1 file.

Erwin

Cool! What do I win? Tony's resistors? I will install them - I swear!

[erwin_ve]

BTW; Old Dales is RN65Da file, new dales is RN65D1 file.

Erwin

Cool! What do I win? Tony's resistors? I will install them - I swear!

A airguitar earring medal.

[erwin_ve]

And the flip file from Marcus: As I stated before I cant hear on every part what it is, only specific parts.
So the marks below are exact time markers were I think the file is old or new, so no flipping points!

Start:New,
0.02m: Old,
0.04m: No idea
0.12m: new,
0.18m: New,
0.34m; Old
0.40m: New
1.08m: New
1.25m: Old
1.58m: Old
2.16m: Old
2.40m: New
3.06m: New
3.11m: New
3.41m: Old

[talbany]

BTW; Old Dales is RN65Da file, new dales is RN65D1 file.

Erwin

Cool! What do I win? Tony's resistors? I will install them - I swear!

Stell
Yes you are the WINNER!!. You can PM Martin if he wants to send them to you they are yours. All I ever wanted was for someone to put them in their amp and enjoy them. Let me know how they work out. PM me if you have any questions.
@Erwin.Im done carry on
Tony

[erwin_ve]

BTW; Old Dales is RN65Da file, new dales is RN65D1 file.

Erwin

Cool! What do I win? Tony's resistors? I will install them - I swear!

Stell
Yes you are the WINNER!!. You can PM Martin if he wants to send them to you they are yours. All I ever wanted was for someone to put them in their amp and enjoy them. Let me know how they work out. PM me if you have any questions.
Tony

Dale.JPG