Blues Deluxe to ODS #183 Thread

[ayan]

Gill,

Yes you're right it was late and I Posted quickly, the resistors weren't NTE but Draloric so apologies. They were $80 though with postage for just the signal path resistors which didn't include plate resistors which according to people here are the main ones to change, so I thought better of it.

It was no dig a Jelle I think her's a great builder I was just pointing out he's now a professional amp maker and has a stock of NOS parts to sell and make a thing of in his own builds so isn't objective as he's got skin in the game as it were when it comes to these discussions. Telling Phil they'll 'suck' just isn't true so I was really responding to that. My amp that Larry Carlton used and enthused over used new Dale resistors in a high plate amp.

Was it also late when you posted the above, mate? If you lived in Jew Jersey instead of the UK, I'm sure you would have been quoted a lower price. Shipping a small parcel within the US is on the order of $10, so overseas it's got to be at least twice as much.

I want to make sure we don't have a straw man here, as that would actually bother me. Jelle did not say the resistors sucked, I already quoted what he posted in an open forum -- which anyone is welcome to go check out -- once. For some reason Phil chose to paraphrase Jelle the way he did, and now you have followed suit. Here are the two sentences Jelle wrote, once again:


"Dumble never used Dales in high plate amps like 183."

And:

"My point is that it won't do '183' with those Dales."

The only thing that is not true in this entire thread is what Phil and you are attributing to Jelle. Maybe you can stop and ponder on that for a minute, maybe you can't.

Gil

[pompeiisneaks]

... OTOH Jelle indicated on FB taht those are BAD for a 183. ...

~Phil

So far I can only see my one quote about jelle here and I just used the term BAD, not suck not anything else. I did paraphrase, I don't recall ever saying he said or that I thought the amp would 'suck' but maybe I did. I probably said something more like I don't see why the amp would suck if I didn't. I guess I need to reread the entire post. It is easy, otoh to jump to conclusions with as vague as jelle is with his posts

I have mad respect for him or I wouldn't have brought up the point in the first place. I've had a great phone call with him about parts etc, that he uses on dumbles once, and I repaid him for that great info by helping him in return, and he still felt he should repay me with a PT for my dual marshall build, so again, nothing but great respect for jelle. I think his builds look amazing and the sound examples I've heard show they're outstanding quality amps.

I'm still on the debate team as to whether parts are as magical as people say I am confident personally that at least 99% of the quality of jelle's amps comes from his hands and years of building amps. maybe 1% chance in the mix

Edit: and I'll add ayan, that did seem like a direct attack on me? not sure why? I'll assume I'm misinterpreting the context.

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

I'm going back and rereading my posts to figure out how my works could have ever implied it. I think I found one area that's being misinterpreted:

I said: 'I guess the best way I can word it is "Why would RN65 suck if he used them on other amps?" I could have sworn I've seen and used them because other amps called for them.'

that's 100% ME asking a general question, not implying anyone else said it directly. So no I didn't say jelle said that, I said that.

the only inferences I see to 'suck' is again my statement:

'I understand shoddily made parts suck and can add problems to any build.'

but I'm still looking...

with respect to my discussion of my builds:

'I've always been torn on this type of discussion because I feel my builds end up being less than stellar, and I want them to improve each time, and I try to overly debate every aspect of what I'm doing'

I think that's pretty clear that I thin the build quality isn't stellar, but not specifically anything about tone (to marcus' point earlier)

I'm also assuming it's likely nobody meant to insult me, or others on the thread, and part of why I went back and reread my posts to ensure I clarified anything I posted. It's extremely hard to state exactly what you mean with words and w/o context of facial expressions and emotive sense of the listener.

I am not taking offense, unless some was intended, and I meant none, so I hope nobody took any.

I think people on this forum need to remember a lot of what's being discussed here is heavy on the opinion and lighter on the facts, and it causes a lot more emotion than it should

~Phil

[ayan]

So far I can only see my one quote about jelle here and I just used the term BAD, not suck not anything else. I did paraphrase, I don't recall ever saying he said or that I thought the amp would 'suck' but maybe I did. I probably said something more like I don't see why the amp would suck if I didn't. I guess I need to reread the entire post. It is easy, otoh to jump to conclusions with as vague as jelle is with his posts

I have mad respect for him or I wouldn't have brought up the point in the first place. I've had a great phone call with him about parts etc, that he uses on dumbles once, and I repaid him for that great info by helping him in return, and he still felt he should repay me with a PT for my dual marshall build, so again, nothing but great respect for jelle. I think his builds look amazing and the sound examples I've heard show they're outstanding quality amps.

I'm still on the debate team as to whether parts are as magical as people say I am confident personally that at least 99% of the quality of jelle's amps comes from his hands and years of building amps. maybe 1% chance in the mix

Edit: and I'll add ayan, that did seem like a direct attack on me? not sure why? I'll assume I'm misinterpreting the context.

~Phil

Phil, I was very careful with my words, and I did not restate either what you or Marcus had said. What I wrote is that both of you paraphrased Jelle, which is true and can be found all over this thread for everyone to read. It's a simple case of one person making their own (mis)interpretation of what someone else said sound like a quote, and then someone else piggybacking on that and turning up the heat. And to be 100% unambiguous, the second part of the statement refers to Marcus:

"... and has a stock of NOS parts to sell and make a thing of in his own builds so isn't objective as he's got skin in the game as it were when it comes to these discussions. Telling Phil they'll 'suck' just isn't true so I was really responding to that."

I'm not Jelle and I still find that statement gratuitously insulting. Jelle threw a piece of advice out there on Face Book for everyone to benefit or ignore, as they see fit. However, in the end, someone else ends up borderline questioning his integrity here. That's impolite, whether you can hear a difference between different types or resistors or not.

I've reached the point where I've said everything I had to say on this thread. Good luck with your build, Phil.

Gil

[pompeiisneaks]

I'll also clarify something else:

I said: 'I guess the best way I can word it is "Why would RN65 suck if he used them on other amps?" I could have sworn I've seen and used them because other amps called for them.'

that 'he' is dumble, not jelle.

Finally,

I can't speak for marcus, but I'll agree with the general statement he initially said about ANY businessperson selling products, they will HAVE a bias, and will attempt, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to influence people to want their product(s). I didn't see him as making a 'slight' on jelle but stating that I should realize he ultimately wants people to buy his products.

I feel it odd that I just re-stated my point of view clearly and you completely glossed it over and re-summarized my point of view as the opposite of what I just said. YOU just paraphrased myself AND marcus, and me poorly, so there you go...

It seems like you're trying to make this bigger than it is, or take personal offense in place of jelle. he has an account here, and although he doesn't read regularly, I'm sure he can read it and respond for himself if needed.

It's when this kind of negative responses start happening to someone like me trying to find good information and asking for help, that I want to just stop using forums or the internet as a whole and just sign off.

It's also part of why I spent the last year or more not posting videos or commenting too heavily on FB or here, I get severely tired of the negativity and attempts people take to prove how right they are at the expense of all civility. I am reminded of something my grandmother would say all the time "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

I was honestly

a. happy jelle gave me info, but felt it was missing a lot of detail, so I came here asking if anyone else could clarify (my assumption was that jelle had a few minutes for fb initially but, got busy... again, assuming he's not being a jerk, but didn't have more time to elaborate, and so I asked here for anyone else that could fill in what's missing).
b. trying to learn and get better at amp building.

I seem to see two types of people in these environments (I'm sure I'm missing some group(s), it's just a generalization

1. truly trying to help others learn how things work
2. people trying to prove how smart they are.

I'm kinda feeling like it's not worth it to know more if it results in this kind of drama for no real reason.

/rant over,

I'll possibly just stop responding for a while, maybe I'm the problem.

~Phil

[talbany]

Yeah I get that, but I personally don't have the money or time to go on a chase for unobtanium parts. I'd rather build it and get it working with new stock high quality parts. I guess the best way I can word it is "Why would RN65 suck if he used them on other amps?" I could have sworn I've seen and used them because other amps called for them.

Let's try and clear this up!
Dumble never used the the the current production Vishay/ Dale resistors in any of his amplifiers period. The ones he used were dated 1975 Diamond cut vs the later laser cut. The main reason why builders here and some professional builders use them is they were in ODS #124. 124 was the first ever Overdrive Special amp to be de-gooped and pictures made available here and to the internet (by Gil Ayan and Billy Yates) Since the older diamond cut Dales were no longer being made builders simply purchased the current Vishay/Dales.Dumble used the 75's up until the mid-late 80's where he switched over to the Roederstien Mk'3 (Dark Blue)and NTE's (early versions) later WH's. These are the Resistors that were in 183 and are all "High quality resistors"
Ironic huh

Tony

[norburybrook]

Gill,

Yes you're right it was late and I Posted quickly, the resistors weren't NTE but Draloric so apologies. They were $80 though with postage for just the signal path resistors which didn't include plate resistors which according to people here are the main ones to change, so I thought better of it.

It was no dig a Jelle I think her's a great builder I was just pointing out he's now a professional amp maker and has a stock of NOS parts to sell and make a thing of in his own builds so isn't objective as he's got skin in the game as it were when it comes to these discussions. Telling Phil they'll 'suck' just isn't true so I was really responding to that. My amp that Larry Carlton used and enthused over used new Dale resistors in a high plate amp.

Was it also late when you posted the above, mate? If you lived in Jew Jersey instead of the UK, I'm sure you would have been quoted a lower price. Shipping a small parcel within the US is on the order of $10, so overseas it's got to be at least twice as much.


Gil

Gill, here's the price breakdown

a set of signal path resistors minus plate and cathodes is $65, shipping is $15.

I thought that was expensive and perhaps he'd give us TAG guys a deal perhaps that's all I was saying. I still stand by the fact if you're a commercial seller then you have a bias, why should Jelle be any diffferent to anyone else? it's why commercial sellers on forums have their own special rules they have to adhere to. I for example cannot comment on the kemper forums about profiles as I'm a commercial profile seller, it's a PIA at times but I understand why. As I said before I like Jelle and think he's a great builder, I'm still allowed to say he has a bias conscious or unconscious, I do, you do, we all do, it's no big deal.

I only came to this thread to support Phil in his build.

I apologise if that's not what's happened.

M

[JD0x0]

Also, keep in mind, even if one resistor is perceivably brighter than another kind, you can make adjustments to the circuit to compensate. Be it, the presence or treble control, or even adjusting snubbers or grid stopper bypass caps. I think either way you can get a great amp, but my interpretation, is that if you want a dead on #183 you probably need all the correct parts, since guitar amps, high gain ones, especially seem so sensitive. Which is what I think Jelle's statements were about. That being said, if you haven't actually played #183, in person, at the top of its game, you probably wont be missing the subtle differences that new production parts might impart, and again, there are ways to compensate for some of the subtle differences.

Personally, I'm not going for specific Dumble amps. I like to take in info from different amps and attempt to apply that to my own voicings, be the amp for me or someone else. IMO, a well tuned amp is a well tuned amp, as skilled as HAD was, nothing he did was magical. There's nothing stopping a skilled amp builder, who's willing to take the time to tune amps properly, and get the desired properties and response from the circuit, if they put the effort and time in. That's probably pretty obvious, as there's quite a few builders here, who do that, who aren't just building clones of the more popular documented D-style amps. They're using modern available parts, to produce amps more consistently at a reasonable cost. So it can be done.

Also, let's get back to basics here.. This amp started as a Blues Deluxe. It likely doesn't have the same aluminum chassis as Dumble used, it's not using the same iron, so it's never going to be a spot on dead clone of #183. So, I think worrying about hard to obtain resistors is kind of moot if you're really going for that dead on accuracy and there's no sense to have deep arguments about it... We can all agree the Iron is not to the same spec as vintage Shumacher Iron and the ferromagnetic and resistive properties of a steel chassis will change things a bit. Not to mention the PCB use is laid out differently than the Dumble boards, which will affect circuit behavior to a degree. I think a Blues Deluxe built with #183 spec values (within a reasonable tolerance) using generic parts of the same compositions, will get you a great amp that gets 'near enough' for 98.9% of people, and you probably wouldn't even be able to note much difference unless you did back to back A/B tests against a 'perfect' clone or the original amp.

[martin manning]

IMNSHO, "...it won't do '183' with those Dales" is a bit of a stretch ;^)

[Charlie Wilson]

Phil, those brown Dales either NOS or new production are what I consider a rather wide or fat sounding resistor. Big and round in the mids and nice and clear on top with the 100k value. Those resistors in high plate amps can be a bit too round sounding and kind of darker on the top end. This is why I think Dumble switched to a leaner sounding resistor for high plate loads like the Roderstein Mk3 or NTE. Also, the resistors Jelle is selling have very little to do with either a #183 or a Bluesmaster, so I find the idea that Jelle is commenting on certain components as a way of marketing the resistors he is selling absurd. So are you going with the #183 or the Bluesmaster?
CW

[pompeiisneaks]

Also, keep in mind, even if one resistor is perceivably brighter than another kind, you can make adjustments to the circuit to compensate. Be it, the presence or treble control, or even adjusting snubbers or grid stopper bypass caps. I think either way you can get a great amp, but my interpretation, is that if you want a dead on #183 you probably need all the correct parts, since guitar amps, high gain ones, especially seem so sensitive. Which is what I think Jelle's statements were about. That being said, if you haven't actually played #183, in person, at the top of its game, you probably wont be missing the subtle differences that new production parts might impart, and again, there are ways to compensate for some of the subtle differences.

Personally, I'm not going for specific Dumble amps. I like to take in info from different amps and attempt to apply that to my own voicings, be the amp for me or someone else. IMO, a well tuned amp is a well tuned amp, as skilled as HAD was, nothing he did was magical. There's nothing stopping a skilled amp builder, who's willing to take the time to tune amps properly, and get the desired properties and response from the circuit, if they put the effort and time in. That's probably pretty obvious, as there's quite a few builders here, who do that, who aren't just building clones of the more popular documented D-style amps. They're using modern available parts, to produce amps more consistently at a reasonable cost. So it can be done.

Also, let's get back to basics here.. This amp started as a Blues Deluxe. It likely doesn't have the same aluminum chassis as Dumble used, it's not using the same iron, so it's never going to be a spot on dead clone of #183. So, I think worrying about hard to obtain resistors is kind of moot if you're really going for that dead on accuracy and there's no sense to have deep arguments about it... We can all agree the Iron is not to the same spec as vintage Shumacher Iron and the ferromagnetic and resistive properties of a steel chassis will change things a bit. Not to mention the PCB use is laid out differently than the Dumble boards, which will affect circuit behavior to a degree. I think a Blues Deluxe built with #183 spec values (within a reasonable tolerance) using generic parts of the same compositions, will get you a great amp that gets 'near enough' for 98.9% of people, and you probably wouldn't even be able to note much difference unless you did back to back A/B tests against a 'perfect' clone or the original amp.

All super helpful and interesting, thanks!!

I agree especially with the fact that I KNOW it can't sound like a 183 due to these many changes you reference. I'm not building an exact copy, just trying to get the signal path to match closely. I'm also using 5881 output tubes, not EL34's like the original as well, etc.

I also tend to be a bit sacrilegious in my builds, i did my trainwreck liverpool build way off of Ken's model and it sounds incredible to me

Great insight.

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

IMNSHO, "...it won't do '183' with those Dales" is a bit of a stretch ;^)

I felt it was pretty vague, but was looking for more detail, I think I'm getting great detail now, thanks to all.

no shade was ever meant to jelle, as mentioned, just didn't get enough information in the little he said.

~Phil

[pompeiisneaks]

Phil, those brown Dales either NOS or new production are what I consider a rather wide or fat sounding resistor. Big and round in the mids and nice and clear on top with the 100k value. Those resistors in high plate amps can be a bit too round sounding and kind of darker on the top end. This is why I think Dumble switched to a leaner sounding resistor for high plate loads like the Roderstein Mk3 or NTE. Also, the resistors Jelle is selling have very little to do with either a #183 or a Bluesmaster, so I find the idea that Jelle is commenting on certain components as a way of marketing the resistors he is selling absurd. So are you going with the #183 or the Bluesmaster?
CW

ahh interesting. I'm doing the #183, but I think I'm retaining the slightly modified tone stack arrangement with the variable pot on the ground but using all the component values of the #183 in the actual stack.

I'm also going to put the HRM in so I can play with dialing in the OD tone.

~Phil

[xtian]

I'm also using 5881 output tubes, not EL34's like the original as well, etc.

The HRD works perfectly well with 6L6GC, BTW.

[pompeiisneaks]

I'm also using 5881 output tubes, not EL34's like the original as well, etc.

The HRD works perfectly well with 6L6GC, BTW.

Yeah I just still have the original 5881 that came in the amp in 1996 so I'll keep them

~Phil