ODS - any advice?

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rootz
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by rootz »

norburybrook wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:24 pm p.s. Rootz, yes the 2x12 is a great cab I have one with two vintage G12-65's. It's big and heavy though. Have you tried the sealed ported 1x12 EVM 12 like the Carlton cab? They have a nice punch to them.
Oh Marcus, please stop! :mrgreen: My list of things I still want to build keeps getting longer and longer! I have a design for a EVM12L based bass reflex cab. It is considerably smaller than the 1x12 I currently use. Care to elaborate what I could gain with a bass reflex over a half open 1x12 Marcus?

Back to the transformer discussion. I made a JTM45 once with super expensive (compared to Heyboer alternatives) transformers. It was a mistake to think that the more expensive would sound the best! It's not to say that it didn't sound good, but not like a JTM45 with good Drake clones or originals. Now bear in mind that the output stage in non-MV doesn't normally run clean to get that typical Marshall sound. I would be pretty much clean before the PI and output tubes start compressing and clipping. I believe that at the point of severe clipping the specifics of any output transformer will play a big role. Here's why. Parts like output transformer are seldomly compared in a scientific approved way. Once I laid hands on a blind test of a bunch of 18 Watt Marshall transformers. Same amp, same tubes, same sound sample IIRC. To this date I remember that in overdrive situations the differences between some of the transformers were shockingly big. I can't remember the differences were that big on the clean parts, because they probably weren't. I think the differences would be more subtle in a Dumble clone too. I do lack the knowledge to give a definitive answer on that matter though.

If breaking in of electrical components is a real thing, there is some good news. I have yet to read an article, comment or opinion where breaking in leads to worse sound reproduction! I can't really comment on it being a true thing or not. There is, like Martin and Tony said, no scientific research on many of these topics that I know of. Lack of research doesn't mean it can't be true though, just that it isn't researched before and you will have to trust your and others ears, logic and experience. In any way it is a highly subjective matter with some objectified arguments.
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by FUCHSAUDIO »

rootz wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:16 pm
norburybrook wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:24 pm p.s. Rootz, yes the 2x12 is a great cab I have one with two vintage G12-65's. It's big and heavy though. Have you tried the sealed ported 1x12 EVM 12 like the Carlton cab? They have a nice punch to them.
If breaking in of electrical components is a real thing, there is some good news. I have yet to read an article, comment or opinion where breaking in leads to worse sound reproduction! I can't really comment on it being a true thing or not. There is, like Martin and Tony said, no scientific research on many of these topics that I know of. Lack of research doesn't mean it can't be true though, just that it isn't researched before and you will have to trust your and others ears, logic and experience. In any way it is a highly subjective matter with some objectified arguments.
A few things to consider as far as iron goes: I recently built an amp that had brand-new defective output transformer. Made maybe ten watts, while it was supposed to be a 40-watt amp. During the diagnosis (of-course suspecting the transformer the least likely suspect), I realized how much unhappy power tubes can affect the grid drive. I tacked-in my test mule transformer (an old Bandmaster output with clip leads) and the amp was fine...but I kept thinking I had a driver problem someplace, because the power tubes were driving a bad transformer and the grids loaded the PI down..the whole output stage certainly works as a unit. I do agree, replacement iron can be all over the map. I like the Classic Tone stuff. Bogner uses it (although he puts a Bogner Custom Shop sticker on them, lol), Heyboers are good as well. Mercury is good at cloning, I've lost faith in them for new designs, as Sergio made a few errors he insisted were "for tone", but getting 60 watts from 4-6L6's at 500 volts due to mismatch is hardly a tone I would sacrifice 50% of my output for.

As far as break-in: I was never a big believer, but I started breaking in amps during burn in with the radio and a dummy load. My main rig is an Overdrive Supreme from the early 2000's. It's been loaned out to artists, gigged hard, and sings like a bird. I play brand-new amps daily, and while they are great, you can feel the organic warm "I want to be your partner" feel that this amp gives me. It's heavy as hell (Delta Pro speaker, and big iron), so I use a prototype hybrid mini combo with a Neo speaker 95% of the time now, but with over 15 years of playing behind it, the rig is stellar...now, to replicate that in the lab...oy.

As far as ODS-II and multichannel platforms: It's not impossible, just don't overthink it, and you can certainly make it work...It takes a pile of relays and careful everything... but it can be done obviously. Les Paul once said "I told Gibson how to build a guitar, just not MY guitar". Same here...I give back what I can, when I can. The one tip I'd share is not messing with relay switching at the input jack. It's really quite tough to keep quiet. Do your switching later on...at higher signal levels and at a lower impedance signal point. FWIW: The Carol-Ann amps are a D-style (with a Marshall twist), and since Alan closed up, I've serviced and tweaked a fair share. One of his amps is pretty cool and is basically an HRM with the normal tone stack on top in channel one, that stack is bypassed (gain boost like a Dumble), and the second stack (HRM stack) on front panel serves the overdrive channel. Not a bad way to get "two channels" so to speak.

As far as Dumble comparisons to modern amps: Look, guys like Brandon and Jelle do their thing and do it well. I built maybe a dozen visual and electrical clones (pc boards though, sorry), that looked and sounded good enough that a local vintage shop asked me to take my amp out of the store (selling for $ 8-K) because it hurt his ability to sell the two real Dumbles he had in the store. I really didn't want to be another cloner in a sea of cloners. I have made a few at the request of a few specific clients, but it's really not my thing. The sales associate at the stores was comparing the two amps, and scratched his head for hours. "This is crazy, I can dial them in identically"....Yes, there are some amazing Dumble examples out there, and there are all the others. Howard had his share of bad days I'm sure, as I've seen, heard and played some amps that quite frankly, were not special at all. Many of us have seen that. If you don't think he had to make the rent and sometimes pushed things out the door to not get the police at his door, an angry attorney up his ass, or a customer banging on the door at 3-AM (oh, sorry Jackson, wrong door), you're fooling yourself.

A good friend had his Dumble repaired when he lived in the Abbey on Jackson Browne's property. He described walking down a hallway filled with Fender amps stacked as high as his head, from which Dumble took parts that he measured carefully and selected for their merits...and he rejected many as well...because of how he ran his "business" (as NOT a business), he never really had much custom made beyond the chassis and cabinets. That's why Radio Shack and other parts were used, where most builders would have a transformer wound to not need that extra transformer...he used stock everything really, and he made it work !

I chose to forge my path based on what I wanted from an amp. Sure, started with a D-clone in a Bandmaster chassis, added reverb, added loop, fancied up foot switching, started refining things like DC tube filaments and PC boards when it finally got to the point I needed to be more consistent and efficient. Do they sound like Dumbles ? I lived with a Dumble Andy Brauer owned that was sent to me for repair. He had a rough year, closing Brauer rentals and personally, so I held onto it and it provided an opportunity for me to tune and compare and refine my amps to do many of the things people like that Dumble's do. The fact is, I no longer care about the comparisons, and am proud that I forged my own path that has influenced other builders (here and commercially too), which is flattering.

Have fun. Be safe, stay well, don't kill yourself, single point ground, be kind to others, and have more fun.
Proud holder of US Patent # 7336165.
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martin manning
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by martin manning »

Thanks for the insights, Andy. Regarding relay switching close to the input jack, several people here have been liking a foot switched FET boost with the gain pot replacing the FET input jack. AFAIK there haven't been any complaints about switching noise.
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by FUCHSAUDIO »

I didn't say it couldn't be done, it's just the most vulnerable spot for noise pickup. Choice of relay, pop-stop resistors, diode and cap on coil, you all know the drill...;)
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Lothy
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by Lothy »

talbany wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:37 am
I don’t really know who Bob Glijka is? other than to say the first time I heard the term transformer break- in time was from Ken Fisher (Trainwreck)
Sorry, wrote it wrong, I meant Bob Gjika...

https://gjikaamplification.com/

Cheers
Gerhard
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norburybrook
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by norburybrook »

FUCHSAUDIO wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:32 pm

Have fun. Be safe, stay well, don't kill yourself, single point ground, be kind to others, and have more fun.
this ^^^^^^^^

thanks for the post Andy :D


M
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Guy77
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by Guy77 »

Nice to hear from you again Andy.
As far as how break in changes the sound of the amp, I have also become a big believer in this. Ever since I have been running my new builds with a signal generator and a dummy load I have also noticed an increase in warmth in the sound of the amps. When I compare the new build that has almost no playing time to the ones that have been running for 15- 20 hrs the difference is noticeable.

Cheers

Guy
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by FUCHSAUDIO »

Guy77 wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:34 pm Nice to hear from you again Andy.
As far as how break in changes the sound of the amp, I have also become a big believer in this. Ever since I have been running my new builds with a signal generator and a dummy load I have also noticed an increase in warmth in the sound of the amps. When I compare the new build that has almost no playing time to the ones that have been running for 15- 20 hrs the difference is noticeable.

Cheers

Guy
25-30 years even better :)...and drink rings on the suede :mrgreen:
Proud holder of US Patent # 7336165.
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by FUCHSAUDIO »

Lothy wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:49 pm
talbany wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:37 am
I don’t really know who Bob Glijka is? other than to say the first time I heard the term transformer break- in time was from Ken Fisher (Trainwreck)
Sorry, wrote it wrong, I meant Bob Gjika...

https://gjikaamplification.com/

Cheers
Gerhard
Gjika frightens me frankly. I had a friend who worked for Premier Builders Guild, who explained why no Gjika amps ever made production..they all had issues with super high current bias frying tubes, hum, instability...the guy's a welder by trade and builds amps. I've seen pictures of his builds...scary.
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talbany
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by talbany »

rootz wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:16 pm
norburybrook wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:24 pm p.s. Rootz, yes the 2x12 is a great cab I have one with two vintage G12-65's. It's big and heavy though. Have you tried the sealed ported 1x12 EVM 12 like the Carlton cab? They have a nice punch to them.
Oh Marcus, please stop! :mrgreen: My list of things I still want to build keeps getting longer and longer! I have a design for a EVM12L based bass reflex cab. It is considerably smaller than the 1x12 I currently use. Care to elaborate what I could gain with a bass reflex over a half open 1x12 Marcus?

Back to the transformer discussion. I made a JTM45 once with super expensive (compared to Heyboer alternatives) transformers. It was a mistake to think that the more expensive would sound the best! It's not to say that it didn't sound good, but not like a JTM45 with good Drake clones or originals. Now bear in mind that the output stage in non-MV doesn't normally run clean to get that typical Marshall sound. I would be pretty much clean before the PI and output tubes start compressing and clipping. I believe that at the point of severe clipping the specifics of any output transformer will play a big role. Here's why. Parts like output transformer are seldomly compared in a scientific approved way. Once I laid hands on a blind test of a bunch of 18 Watt Marshall transformers. Same amp, same tubes, same sound sample IIRC. To this date I remember that in overdrive situations the differences between some of the transformers were shockingly big. I can't remember the differences were that big on the clean parts, because they probably weren't. I think the differences would be more subtle in a Dumble clone too. I do lack the knowledge to give a definitive answer on that matter though.

If breaking in of electrical components is a real thing, there is some good news. I have yet to read an article, comment or opinion where breaking in leads to worse sound reproduction! I can't really comment on it being a true thing or not. There is, like Martin and Tony said, no scientific research on many of these topics that I know of. Lack of research doesn't mean it can't be true though, just that it isn't researched before and you will have to trust your and others ears, logic and experience. In any way it is a highly subjective matter with some objectified arguments.
Depends on the amp and sound you are chasing.
There are a few vintage amps out there where I would be much more picky about which transformers I would use in other replica amps (If was going for a more "authentic" sound!).A few of these would be a JTM 45/Plexi or Trainwreck, Hiwatt (Partridge) or an old tweed Deluxe to name a few. Those old Drakes and RS transformers were IMO definitely a big part of that old Marshall sound.I personally wouldn't put the ODS or the SSS into that category unless your trying to get as close as possible to a real serial # Dumble I would only then seek out some old used Twin/Showman Iron just to be on the safe side.

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
Stephen1966
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by Stephen1966 »

I think "don't kill yourself" has to be the finest piece of advice anyone ever gave me. We will see :D

I've been away for a while, and now I'm going away again but I want to thank all you guys. It's inspiring to hear your suggestions and wise words. I've never knowingly been within a thousand miles of a real Dumble so the idea that I could somehow clone the sound is far-fetched. But the build methodology, or to use an arcane suggestion, Dumble's philosophy behind construction of the sound, is something I buy into wholeheartedly. I think it's enough to be happy that the pilot light goes on when we first switch the switch and everything after that is the cream of discovering and tweaking until I find a sound I am happy with. I think it's a good idea to keep the variables to a minimum but also, a good idea to start out with the circuit that seems initially more desirable. That's where you guys are providing me with an education - it is truly valuable insight. I appreciate it greatly.

I'll be back!
Stephen
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scotto
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by scotto »

+1 on the importance of the transformers. In the early days of this forum I was struggling to get a good sound out of a very early Ceriatone clone. Brandon sold me one of the custom wound Heyboer OTs that he was using at the time and it made a huge difference in the tone. Night and day. He also coached me through setup which also made a big difference. I also have a pair of Bandmasters from the late 60s that are identical except one has a Mercury OT. The one with the original OT sounds better to my ears. I can't say definitively that it's the aged, original OT that makes the difference but it is a data point.
Scott
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by ChopSauce »

Interesting, definitely... 8)
Stephen1966 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:28 pm I think "don't kill yourself" has to be the finest piece of advice anyone ever gave me. We will see :D
Really? This is not something I need to hear. I'd say "enjoy the trip" rather... :wink:
(cause this is what it takes me to avoid the temptation to cutting corners growing as the build goes)
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by Stephen1966 »

Regarding transformers, I used a brand-new Hammond stock PT for the Tweedle-D 5E3 I built and I am still dealing with the higher voltages it puts out (as compared to the original). There's no doubt it works, it's a keeper, but as per the Dumble credo, I don't know if it is so important if it is NOS or something found in the rusty bits of the backyard. Getting the specs to be a good match seems to be the critical issue.

This might be a stupid, no brainer kinda question but I have to ask, has anyone tried incorporating a Dumbleator in a cabinet? I've seen the Ceriaphony heads with this (sorry Ceriatone dudes), but I haven't come across any real home-built cabinets with this. I'm not particularly partial to FX loops, I just like to plug it in and make some noise, but I get asked time and time again, about FX loops. I can see the benefit of a late stage signal with certain pedals (which would remove the need to try to incorporate those things in the same cabinet) but I am concerned about adding more active electronics to an already optimised circuit and chassis. Portability is an advantage for me. I should be able to hold my gear in one hand and a beer in the other, but all joking aside, if its going to mess with the rich tones I would prefer to go tee-total.
Stephen
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martin manning
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Re: ODS - any advice?

Post by martin manning »

Stephen1966 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:20 am Regarding transformers, I used a brand-new Hammond stock PT for the Tweedle-D 5E3 I built and I am still dealing with the higher voltages it puts out (as compared to the original). There's no doubt it works, it's a keeper, but as per the Dumble credo, I don't know if it is so important if it is NOS or something found in the rusty bits of the backyard. Getting the specs to be a good match seems to be the critical issue.
It will depend on what is available to you, but you are correct, get the right specs. Fortunately, the spec is something that is commonly available. Hammond Fender Twin replacement transformers will be fine, or you could get In Mad Out in Italy to make them up for you. Forum member Marcus Cliffe has used them with good results. If you are using a pre-made chassis, but sure to check the mounting bolt centers and cut-out dimensions.
Stephen1966 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:20 am...has anyone tried incorporating a Dumbleator in a cabinet?
There have been many ODS's with built-in Dumbleator (4th tube added to chassis) constructed by forum members. I don't find the tube loop to be an essential item, but it's fun to play around with. Mine is a compact 1/4-rack size, but it's still an extra thing and more cables to carry around.
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