NOS parts in 183

[212Mavguy]

IMHO I'm with Greg and ToneMerc, I have done a bit a tweaking trying different parts of the same value in another circuit and noticed tonal differences. I believe them.

[qtone]

As I said I could clearly hear a difference soon as the right glass was installed..
Then we delved into the Nos parts and it improved even more so.
This week we stumbled upon the other parts which should make even more of a difference..... Those will go into both Quinns here... Gregs and Mine..

Do I think it was worth it to put those in my amp ?
Yea 1000000000 times over...

Im having it done too every tube amp I own..
Finding the parts is the challenge and its worth it to my ears..

Best tones ive ever had over the past 30 years..

[10thTx]

I'll have some clips up soon of my amp after the parts change out, still waiting for some stuff.

Boldaslove,

Excellent! I have enjoyed the videos you previously posted & think both your amps and playing sound superb. I've been impressed with everything I've heard you do.

So I will look forward to listening to the tweaked tone with NOS parts. IF it's possible to use the same guitar, cab, effects ......... etc...... that would help as a listener to discern the actual difference.

As a side note, I had a chance to see Jimi Hendrix do some stuff from his Axis: Bold as Love. Quite a showman as well as a player.

With respect, 10thtx

[brentm]

Yeah, looking forward as well!

I have this thing... when I change my oil in my car, it drives better! Same when I wash it.... now, I know that this has to be in my head...

Tube rolling is a little different. I can hear some dramatic changes when I swap tubes with certain tubes and tube types. Some are a little more subtle....

but, what this is leading up to, is there has to be some amount of actual tonal changes and some "placebo effect" for lack of a better term. Acquiring the difficult to find parts and then taking the effort to install them, all the while, anticipation builds for the time when you finally get to fire it up and listen to yourself play.

I'm not discounting or saying that there is absolutely zero change. Just that the changes heard may be enhanced to some degree by the minds eye and expected results.

A/B switches with NOS parts and current production might be the only legitimate test here. or perhaps provide some amount of measurable results.

[vibratoking]

I'd love to hear A/B clips as well. I prefer a full understanding, so looking at resistors as flavors is an interesting concept, but I want to know what is changing and why it is changing. In order to be motivated to do that, I need to hear differences with a switch because my audio perceptive memory just isn't that good.

Tube differences can be different depending on the circuit. Just roll some in and out of V1 in and Express and it will be very obvious. Tube differences are not that obvious in D-clones IME. I've rolled Telefunkens, GEs, RCAs, etc... and the differences just aren't that significant to my ear.

[talbany]

We should not try to blow this to out of perportion..
Like I said in the Feedback City thread..I did notice a kind of smoothness and a bit of clarity (less congested/fuzzy) on the top end with the Pihers compared to the Xicons I have been using..This is not a Holy sh#$ moment..The Xicons provide a slightly more aggressive mids OD tone..So it's a matter of taste..My 2nd generation has the Xicons in it and I absolutely love the tone in that amp so they are staying..Did the Piher resistors help with sustain and bloom.. Well it didn't hurt..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyB4HedEOvs

If resistors didn't make any difference then why the need for the RN65 plates...Ping!:lol:

Tony

[martin manning]

If resistors didn't make any difference then why the need for the RN65 plates...Ping!:lol:

I don't know, is there a need for RN65 plate loads, or does everybody just copy everybody else? Maybe some other 1W metal film resistors would work just as well. Somebody even suggested that old Dale RN65's sound different from new Vishay-Dale's. This is one of the things I'd like to see tested, and I'm pretty sure that listening tests are going to be the only way. Even a high-resolution spectrum analyzer might not show a measureablr difference when something is detected by a human ear. Further to that, a measured difference (of any kind) might or might not be important to the tone. There are psycho-acoustics involved for sure, as suggested above, so some kind of blind testing would be desirable. I'm glad to hear you say that these are subtle effects- that's as much as I'm willing to accept without hearing it for myself.

[talbany]

I don't know, is there a need for RN65 plate loads,

Martin
That was a kind of joke!..Youv'e been around here long enough to remember how everyone here said you have to use the RN's to get that high end PING..

Maybe some other 1W metal film resistors would work just as well.

Feedback City 102 has MF KOA Speers and I love the amp!!

Somebody even suggested that old Dale RN65's sound different from new Vishay-Dale's. This is one of the things I'd like to see tested..

IMO They do and I would like to see the test results as well!!..

All the Best!!

Tony

[brentm]

Yeah, perhaps it's just all a matter of perception. To borrow a concept from "What the bleep", there is no ultimate observer that we can consult... so it's just a matter of taste and perception. If qtone, ToneMerc, BoldasLove, and others say the NOS parts really stack up... then they must.

I've been perplexed as hell about tubes. So I'd better not venture into NOS parts... or it'll just cost me a bunch of dough and I'll still leave the restaurant unsatisfied. My tube fetish has cost a few bucks, and while I have quite a cache of tubes, I still find some of the best sounding tubes to be the cheapest ones I've found. And... and I don't think I could blindly identify the difference between a NOS Telefunken and an Ei tube (e.g. they both sound great). Now, the Ei tube will wear out faster... another story.. But what I've found is significance with tubes and their placement. Garbage in/out... So if V1 has a bum tube... V2 is going to sound like shit and so on.... So it's not so much about the individual tube as it is about the tubes working together.... just like in sports or perhaps NOS components.... I'm sure people drive themselves crazy trying to figure out some amount of repeatability in this... but perhaps there is no secret repeatable recipe... and we're all just left with some close version of a reflection of our own playing through the amp.

[ToneMerc]

Feedback City 102 has MF KOA Speers and I love the amp!!
Tony

I don't know when I've seen a Dale RN65 last . Ok, less resistor talk and more amp building....lol

TM

[talbany]

Mike
Are those the low ESR Sprague's?

Looks great man!!

T

[ToneMerc]

Mike
Are those the low ESR Sprague's?

Looks great man!!

T

Yes Sir, I just about ran out of them and started using BC's in the last 2 builds though.

thanks

Now my 183 like amp, I would like to see head to head with some others.


TM

[martin manning]

I don't know, is there a need for RN65 plate loads,

Martin, That was a kind of joke!..Youv'e been around here long enough to remember how everyone here said you have to use the RN's to get that high end PING..

Yes, that's the way I took it Tony- I thought later I should have added a ;^) there...

Tubes I can accept as sounding different, but I believe this is largely due to the old ones of a given type having different average and lower variation in their characteristics (mu, gm, rp) than current production. This results in (effectively) different bias points and a different plate loads, and accordingly different harmonic content, using the same plate and cathode resistors. Power tubes can at least be adjusted to the same zero-signal bias point, but different preamp tubes will shift measurably in idle current.

[talbany]

Tubes I can accept as sounding different

Martin
So you have a hard time believing that materials and construction methods used to make a resistor can actually effect sound...
The engineer side of me has a hard time believing it..(or maybe I don't fully understand how) The player side of me does..Tone generating is the goal so the player side of me trumps the engineer side!!
I think the creative process between player/engineer is the art form

All The Best!!
Tony

[martin manning]

Tubes I can accept as sounding different

Martin
So you have a hard time believing that materials and construction methods used to make a resistor can actually effect sound...
The engineer side of me has a hard time believing it..(or maybe I don't fully understand how) The player side of me does..Tone generating is the goal so the player side of me trumps the engineer side!!
I think the creative process between player/engineer is the art form.

I'll be convinced if I can hear it, and I admit I haven't tried to investigate or disprove it to myself- yet. All the reports I've seen are based on loosely controled trials where lots of other variables are moving. Capacitors are reactive by nature and that property dominates their effect on the frequency content of the signal passed through them. The dielectric material is an important part of this, and different types are widely reported to have differing effects on audio frequency signal and the perceived sound quality. They have small inductive and resistive components in their non-ideal behavior, but the resistive part is insignificant, and the reactive part is not significant at audio frequencies. Resistors are only reactive in their non-ideal behavior, which is slight and again only at frequencies which are much higher than audio. IMO they are therefore much less likely to have any significant impact on tone, perhaps no more so in this regard than a piece of wire (and yea, that is agued by some too!).