Layout 5th Generation 183

[Mr Dumble]

Do you guys really think this needs to be locked??

Maybe you should lock it Scott so all of the cry babbies will be happy. God forbid they have to scroll down past a post or 2 that does not agree with what they think. By the way, you have never built an amp, so you should ban yourself along with everyone else who hasnt. Its an AMP BUILDERS forum. Repairs or mods are not included in that. LOL!!

(Hope all is well man, and I miss hearing your clips at TGP.) When I get the Quinn and get it all sorted out, we will HAVE to FINALLY get together to see what you think. Still no peeking though.

[Bob-I]

No, it doesn't need to be locked, but some of the contributors could be more respectful of each other.

[johan]

Locked? Why?
Clean it up, that's what mods are for.

When people come here and ask for info most people replies "Use the search button!".
Read this thread and think about it. Almost impossible to find what you're looking for when you have to go though all the nonsense.

This is hardly 12 pages of valuable info. That would fit on two pages

[talbany]

Hey I think the thread has served it's purpose..Everyones had a chance to look over the layout so I'll go ahead and have it sticky in the files section along with the rest of them.. If we find anymore errors I can edit them over there (for subject matters sake) so if someone wants to start a new new thread with clips of there clones or the original whatever and battle it out over there as to which one sounds like whatever that would be wonderful.. Thanks everyone who contributed to nailing this one down and good luck with all your builds..
Perhaps in the future we could do a Music Man layout..
Hope the layouts help..

Tony ...

[Max]

Perhaps in the future we could do a Music Man layout..

Tony ...

Hi Tony,

you've asked me concerning these "MM Dumble amps" in one of your posts in this thread and I was not 100% sure then what you are talking about and if I correctly understood what you asked me about: What kind of Dumble amp precisely do you call such a "MM Dumble amp", what are their unique specs and features?

All the best, have a great day and thanks again for this layout,

Max

[jaysg]

MM Dumble amp uses the PT and OT from the 70's Music Man HD-130...no relation to Mercury Magnetics. B+ is around 725, screens at half B+.

[BobW]

Tony, Your layouts have been a great help and inspiration to all the builders here. Thank You!

[talbany]

Perhaps in the future we could do a Music Man layout..

Tony ...

Hi Tony,

you've asked me concerning these "MM Dumble amps" in one of your posts in this thread and I was not 100% sure then what you are talking about and if I correctly understood what you asked me about: What kind of Dumble amp precisely do you call such a "MM Dumble amp", what are their unique specs and features?

All the best, have a great day and thanks again for this layout,

Max

Tony, Your layouts have been a great help and inspiration to all the builders here. Thank You!

Bob
Your most welcome!!

Max
Hope you are well..
This is what I know..Around the time Music Man went under HAD acquired some of there iron and used them around the late 180x-190x time frame.. AFAIK these were front panel mid lift toggle either 5th or possibly 6th generation Skyliners..AFAIK for the most part the preamp section didn't very much by design..
MM power transformers produced 350v DC used a voltage doubler to obtain a 700+ volt B+1.. Since the plate caps are a part of the voltage doubling circuit he could tap off the series plate caps to supply the screens with half that 350v relieving much of the stress from the tube..This also IMO places the output tubes at a different operating curve resulting in slightly different tone and breakup character.. The result is a thick fuzzy kind of wool-y type breakup character especially in OD.. Slightly more touch sensitive and real fun to play..Due to the high plate voltages you can use only certain types of tubes in these amps.. EL-34's can handle up to 800v so most can handle the higher voltages but can also yield different type breakup character.. There are some 6L6 types that can handle the high voltages like Solvtek 5881 and Tungsol 6L's and JJ 6L's as well..
The main difference in the MM powered amps is the output section things I mention as well as some added safety features due to the high B+..
Here is a clip of my Music Man ( the rhythm track) give you an idea of the thick Breakup Snarl of the MM topology..
Hope this helps..

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=9192504


One more

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=9030530

Tony

[ampdork]

KT88 sounds BADASS in that circuit btw...

[chris_sanford]

acquired some of there iron and used them around the late 180x-190x time frame.. AFAIK these were front panel mid lift toggle either 5th or possibly 6th generation Skyliners..AFAIK for the most part the preamp section didn't very much by design..

Tony

Hi Tony,

Some of the MM amps arrived sooner, with serial numbers in the 140-150 range. I have not personally seen any with serial numbers as high as 180, but the formula was tried and true by then, so it's certainly possible.

HTH,

chris

[talbany]

Hey Chris.. Thanks!!

I personally know of 1 in the 190's.. This is the one I built mine after..

Take Care

Tony

[Max]

acquired some of there iron and used them around the late 180x-190x time frame.. AFAIK these were front panel mid lift toggle either 5th or possibly 6th generation Skyliners..AFAIK for the most part the preamp section didn't very much by design..

Tony

Hi Tony,

Some of the MM amps arrived sooner, with serial numbers in the 140-150 range. I have not personally seen any with serial numbers as high as 180, but the formula was tried and true by then, so it's certainly possible.

HTH,

chris

Hi Tony, hi Chris,

I've met this kind of PT already in an otherwise rather usual 4th generation "classic" ODS without a precision PS. The only a bit unusual feature of this 4th generation "classic" ODS with such a MM PT was that it had the trigger trim pot on the back panel on the right beside the footswitch jack.

And AFAIK at least some of these "goldscript" (classic > skyline transition generation) ODS amps in the 140 - 150 range that Chris knows to have such a MM PT have "classic" circuits, too. But perhaps Chris knows more precisely what preamps and PS circuits have been in these #140 to #150 amps he knows?

So, if I didn't misunderstand something already up to know, you obviously meet these MM PTs in amps built with rather different features and preamp specs?

But I did understand Tony in a way that he thinks that the use of this kind of PT is linked with certain preamp specs, too. Tony, why do you think so?

@ talbany:

Tony, if you think that there is a linkage between this kind of PT and certain preamp specs and features, could you tell me what preamp specs you think that only these ODS amps with these MM PTs shall have?

Or can you post a link to some pictures of such a kind of amp you are talking about or tell me a series # of at least one of them and if such an amp was used for professional recordings? Have these soundclick clips been recorded with an original Dumble ODS with this PT and the preamp specs that you think are linked with the use of this PT?

I am still not sure if I understand what kind of Dumble ODS precisely you are talking about as being a "MM Dumble ODS"?

Hope you are well, too!

All the best,

Max

[chris_sanford]

Hey Chris.. Thanks!!

I personally know of 1 in the 190's.. This is the one I built mine after..

Take Care

Tony

Very cool. Thanks for the info!

chris

[dreric]

Ok time out…..
This is my take on the now famous #183 amp. Thanks to Jason for the fine boards.
I have a 4 button foot switch will add one extra OD channel (think HRM)
1968 plexi 100 watt output transformer, the real deal.
Quad of GEC KT-66 or RFT EL-34 Need a chassis and power transformer.

Steve.

Hey Steve,

I dig what you are doing with your 183 build. I have several questions I'm hoping that you'd be so kind to answer.

1. How are you planning to mount the relay / HRM board. I have the same boards, Jason does a great job, but the HRM is from his Emmy pro set and it's wider that the main board.

2. I know you are using lower values in the big filter caps, why and how do you anticipate that it will affect the sound of the amp.

3. What transformers are you planning to use? I'm going to go with one of the new Heybors that Jason is ordering and a old Marshall OT, but the original 183 uses twin iron (magic parts TL 130), I've yet to understand how HAD supplied the heaters with that transformer. OT ?????

** BTW I had a conversation with MP yesterday. Their current TL 130 are Magnetic Components, 155 chokes are Marvel. They have no "old stock: 130's laying about***

4. Your caps are 6ps ? and NTE ? how do you decide where to put which where. Kind of the same question with your use of NOS milspec resistors. I have a lot of these resistors and a fair amount of 418s and 6PS I want to use I'm just guessing as to where to put them so I'm interested in your logic.

I admire your work and participation within the group.

Eric

[chris_sanford]

Hi Tony, hi Chris,

And AFAIK at least some of these "goldscript" (classic > skyline transition generation) ODS amps in the 140 - 150 range that Chris knows to have such a MM PT have "classic" circuits, too. But perhaps Chris knows more precisely what preamps and PS circuits have been in these #140 to #150 amps he knows?

Hi Max,

All of the MM amps I know about are Skyliners. The PS is specific to the MM iron, and therefore I do not believe it is correct to call them 'precision power', even though they do have stacked filter caps. IMO, the 'precision' term has more to do with the different dropping string, i.e. the 10k resistor between V2 and V1, along with the lower-than-22k value resistor between the pi and V2 combine to give it 'precision'. The MM amps I'm aware of all have the 22k-2.2k string. Perhaps Tony's example was different though?

Cheers!

chris