Ceriatone Overtone S&M Special

[FUCHSAUDIO]

I never made any secret where my original inspiration came from. I shared data with Gil, Steve Ahola, Bill Morgan as they did with me, on this very forum and others.

I also had no issue with Fuchs chassis pics being posted, when they were stock, unmodified amps. When someone posts a hacked up or modified amp, not representative of what leaves our shop, then I have an issue with it. I actually posted my own TDS and ODS shots on TGP a year or so ago.

My circuit values (as well as my own additions like the loop, the reverb, power supply tweaks etc, and other things) have evolved to my own interpretation of the D-style topology. While the first amps I built were clones (in Fender chassis mostly) our production amps were never clones, nor intended to be.

Two Rock did much the same, although they denied (and still deny today) the whole "clone thing". FWIW, they can do what they want, as will I.

[ayan]

I never made any secret where my original inspiration came from. I shared data with Gil, Steve Ahola, Bill Morgan as they did with me, on this very forum and others.

Of course I know that, Andy. I wasn't directing my post at you in particular, as you've always been up front about things and, as you've stated, we have exchanged information for the last decade on this subject. My feeling is that some people probably think Nik owes anyone anything for having benefited from this forum, while all of us previously benefited from other fora and people ourselves. Nothing more.

Gil

[FUCHSAUDIO]

No offense taken brother Gil......The main point is that (for most of us) it's been an exchange and sharing of ideas within reason.

Most share some. Some share none.

[scotto]

Mine's modded and I can't imagine going back. Original circuit sounded OK (not great) with single coils but didn't work at all with my humbucker guitars. Now it sounds very good with all guitars, including EMG SAs. I only post this as advise to potential Ceriatone buyers. Get the modded version and help keep Scott's inbox from overload.

[Fischerman]

As for anomalies in the other companies amp, that is very true. Because using Bludo as an example, he has been in so many Dumbles, each Bludo is totally unique with its own values chosen to accomplish a goal. Similar to what Dumble did. Difference between that and the original OTS values is that the OTS values are way different than anything ever documented in a Dumble. All well and good unless you want Dumble tone.

There seems to be a bit of a paradox here. You say "all well and good unless you want Dumble tone" yet just a few words earlier you say "each Bludo is totally unique with its own values chosen to accomplish a goal. Similar to what Dumble did." The amps were tweeked to sound different...not the same...right? There is no one, absolute 'Dumble tone' is there? So as you say, Dumble deviated from the 'stock' values in order to accomplish a goal. But don't we all do that? Are you saying that Brandon never deviates from 'documented' values...and if he does are those values now 'invalid' because HAD never used them? Same with Fuchs/Two Rock/Glaswerks/Carol-Ann/etc., they're all just different spins (thank goodness). IMO, if it's kosher for these other builders to have their own spin it's kosher for Ceriatone to have theirs too (even if it sounds like poo...which I have no idea if it does or doesn't...I've seen the Kaiser clip...so it's not like grail tone always emanated from the real things either).

Just hoping to continue the friendly discussion...not trying to get all 'TGP' on ya.

[dogears]

The point was that Nik's original values were quite a bit more agressive than what Dumble used. I had many unsolicited requests to assist in tuning. The exact same "problem" in every request. I never said Ceriatone was junk. Just said that some tweaking may be in order and that the amp in its original form was not going to be a good sounding Dumble tone (I had tried similar values many times in my own experimentation). As the amp was held out as a Dumble clone (#124 keeps being mentioned), I point out that it is not. Problem is that people kept referring to it as being a direct competitor to the other amps for so much less $$. It was not since it did not and could not sound like the "grail" Dumble tones with its value set. Nik was and is entitled to his own spin, but when his supporters started saying stuff like his amp pisses all over the overpriced clones, enough was enough.

As for the paradox you mention, it is not so. When one has been inside so many specimans or has such a strong point of reference, you can massage the values to achieved the goal. The deviations never being so outside the box.

Not slamming Nik here fwiw. Just putting my perspective on it. The newer OTS amps sound more Dumbley fwiw.

As for anomalies in the other companies amp, that is very true. Because using Bludo as an example, he has been in so many Dumbles, each Bludo is totally unique with its own values chosen to accomplish a goal. Similar to what Dumble did. Difference between that and the original OTS values is that the OTS values are way different than anything ever documented in a Dumble. All well and good unless you want Dumble tone.

There seems to be a bit of a paradox here. You say "all well and good unless you want Dumble tone" yet just a few words earlier you say "each Bludo is totally unique with its own values chosen to accomplish a goal. Similar to what Dumble did." The amps were tweeked to sound different...not the same...right? There is no one, absolute 'Dumble tone' is there? So as you say, Dumble deviated from the 'stock' values in order to accomplish a goal. But don't we all do that? Are you saying that Brandon never deviates from 'documented' values...and if he does are those values now 'invalid' because HAD never used them? Same with Fuchs/Two Rock/Glaswerks/Carol-Ann/etc., they're all just different spins (thank goodness). IMO, if it's kosher for these other builders to have their own spin it's kosher for Ceriatone to have theirs too (even if it sounds like poo...which I have no idea if it does or doesn't...I've seen the Kaiser clip...so it's not like grail tone always emanated from the real things either).

Just hoping to continue the friendly discussion...not trying to get all 'TGP' on ya.

[fullerplast]

As the amp was held out as a Dumble clone (#124 keeps being mentioned), I point out that it is not.

Who keeps saying this is a dumble clone? Not Nik. Not owners that I know. This perception seems to be coming from those who feel he lifted someone's schematic, yet comparisons reveal significant differences from anyone elses amps or any known schematics. I will say that the physical topology is very much more Dumble-like than some others and perhaps that's where the clone image comes from. That topology does make the amp very easy for the end user to make into whatever one wants, relative to some other amps.

Problem is that people kept referring to it as being a direct competitor to the other amps for so much less $$. It was not since it did not and could not sound like the "grail" Dumble tones with its value set. Nik was and is entitled to his own spin, but when his supporters started saying stuff like his amp pisses all over the overpriced clones, enough was enough.

I've actually not seen this statement come from any OTS owners. As for comparisons based on tone, it is what it is. People will prefer the amp that best matches their tastes. For me, price was not an issue whatsoever. For others it may be the only way to get into a D-style amp.

As for the paradox you mention, it is not so. When one has been inside so many specimans or has such a strong point of reference, you can massage the values to achieved the goal. The deviations never being so outside the box.

Without schematics of the various builders amps, theres no way to prove or disprove your claim of the degree of other builders deviations. I do suspect there are considerable deviations in some builders amps, as they do not claim to be clones either......any more than Nik does.

And again Scott, as I've said many times before and will say now again....you have been one of the most generous people on the net with respect to helping others and sharing information. None of what I say has anything to do with the appreciation of that, or the appreciation of others doing the same. As Gil said, whether one borrows from the source or borrows from the borrowers, ultimately all of this originates from one place: Mr Dumble.

As for anomalies in the other companies amp, that is very true. Because using Bludo as an example, he has been in so many Dumbles, each Bludo is totally unique with its own values chosen to accomplish a goal. Similar to what Dumble did. Difference between that and the original OTS values is that the OTS values are way different than anything ever documented in a Dumble. All well and good unless you want Dumble tone.

There seems to be a bit of a paradox here. You say "all well and good unless you want Dumble tone" yet just a few words earlier you say "each Bludo is totally unique with its own values chosen to accomplish a goal. Similar to what Dumble did." The amps were tweeked to sound different...not the same...right? There is no one, absolute 'Dumble tone' is there? So as you say, Dumble deviated from the 'stock' values in order to accomplish a goal. But don't we all do that? Are you saying that Brandon never deviates from 'documented' values...and if he does are those values now 'invalid' because HAD never used them? Same with Fuchs/Two Rock/Glaswerks/Carol-Ann/etc., they're all just different spins (thank goodness). IMO, if it's kosher for these other builders to have their own spin it's kosher for Ceriatone to have theirs too (even if it sounds like poo...which I have no idea if it does or doesn't...I've seen the Kaiser clip...so it's not like grail tone always emanated from the real things either).

Just hoping to continue the friendly discussion...not trying to get all 'TGP' on ya.

[/quote]

[Fischerman]

When one has been inside so many specimans or has such a strong point of reference, you can massage the values to achieved the goal.

It's almost like you're implying that you have to have been under the hood of X number of real things (and/or looked at X number of degooped photos) in order to have a license to tweek your own D-inspired amp. I contend that you don't have to have been in ANY real specimens (or seen even one pic...degooped or not) in order to effectively massage the values to achieve your goal. You just have to know how guitar amps work and how to tweek them. These are guitar amps and as such are quite simple. There's a reason it seems everybody and their brother is building or has built homebrew guitar amps...because it's pretty easy and isn't rocket surgery. Maybe I can't tweek a D-style amp to a particular person's liking...but there are plenty of examples of HAD not being able to tweek his amps to some people's likings too.

It seems that if HAD built or tweeked an amp that sounded like shit...he gets a pass. The amp was sick...or it had bad tubes...or it needed a tune-up...or HAD intentionally made the amp sound like that and was a genius for doing so. But if Nik makes an amp that sounds like shit then it's a witch hunt...it's because he doesn't have a clue. I'm not sure where Fuchs/Two Rock/Glaswerks/Carol-Ann fall...for example the Emmy Pro thread on TGP...I believe you said the HRM treble cap was a non-HAD value...but some people seem to think it's...very good.

[dogears]

Look guys.... I have no beef with Nik. Indeed, when the OTS was first released, there was an individual on TGP who used the exact "pisses all over" comment. It really bent me out of shape.

Of course, one doesn't need to have been personally involved with playing many real specimans in order to be able to really appreciate HADs tuning genius. But, it sure helps. I don't think that point can be understated. I stand by my point that if Nik has real Dumbles at his disposal, he could and would be making amps that are far closer in tone to the real deal. Is that a valid point?

I don't think we are on opposing sides here. No need to argue.

[Fischerman]

Scott,
I probably don't use enough smileys or something...but I don't consider this an 'arguement' per se...just a discussion.

IMO the 'pisses al over' type of comments appear to be geared to get under people's skin. I usually just dismiss comments like that (or try at least).

I stand by my point that if Nik has real Dumbles at his disposal, he could and would be making amps that are far closer in tone to the real deal. Is that a valid point?

Which real deal? That's sort of my point. HAD tweeked them to sound different based on the player. There's all the different versions of the ODS over the years and they sound different. Fuchs has their version...Carol-Ann theirs and so on. Nik has his version (or versions).

What would you have thought about a Bluesmaster clone before you ever knew about the Bluesmaster circuit? All those 'Marshall' values in there, etc? Or what about certain pre-OD networks? Before you knew it was an actual documented 'real deal' ODS pre-OD network it would have just appeared...wrong?

Again, just a friendly discussion.

[talbany]

Been here before...

Tony VVT

[Fischerman]

I think it...yep...it definitely moved.

[Structo]

As with anything connected to music it is very subjective.

One persons grail may be another persons turd.

But I will say that I think the main interest in the D style amps had to originate in what Robben, Larry, Lindsey, Sonny, etc. achieved with their amps.

I know for myself I love Robbens Politician tone and that was one of my reasons for selecting the Brown Note D'Lite.

But then again, I don't play in the same style as those named above so no matter how I tweek my amp, I still sound like me although I do like the direction my amp took after some mods.

I will say here and now that if it weren't for the people like Scott, Gil, Brandon, Andy, Allyn, and a bunch of other fellows on this forum gladly sharing their knowledge and component values, I probably would have sold off my amp a long time ago because I didn't really care for it the way it sounded stock.

Plus, it's a heck of a lot of fun getting the iron out and trying different things.

If this amp was a mass produced smd, pcb flow soldered amp, I wouldn't be able to do much with it.
That is the great thing about the vintage style build with turret or eyelet boards. You simply plug a new component in to see what it does for you.

In the end I just want to say:

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND THE AMP GARAGE ROCKS!

[ayan]

Look guys.... I have no beef with Nik. Indeed, when the OTS was first released, there was an individual on TGP who used the exact "pisses all over" comment. It really bent me out of shape.

Quite frankly, it's hard for me to arrive at that same conclusion every time this subject comes up, Scott.

Of course, one doesn't need to have been personally involved with playing many real specimans in order to be able to really appreciate HADs tuning genius. But, it sure helps. I don't think that point can be understated. I stand by my point that if Nik has real Dumbles at his disposal, he could and would be making amps that are far closer in tone to the real deal. Is that a valid point?

You sure don't want me to rewind back to about 5 years ago, do you? Please. But if you want me to, I can.

Gil

[dogears]

Gil, I have no idea why we are going back and forth. Is there some reason?

Look guys.... I have no beef with Nik. Indeed, when the OTS was first released, there was an individual on TGP who used the exact "pisses all over" comment. It really bent me out of shape.

Quite frankly, it's hard for me to arrive at that same conclusion every time this subject comes up, Scott.

Of course, one doesn't need to have been personally involved with playing many real specimans in order to be able to really appreciate HADs tuning genius. But, it sure helps. I don't think that point can be understated. I stand by my point that if Nik has real Dumbles at his disposal, he could and would be making amps that are far closer in tone to the real deal. Is that a valid point?

You sure don't want me to rewind back to about 5 years ago, do you? Please. But if you want me to, I can.

Gil