Comparison of Fender iron tone VS Music Man iron tone

[greiswig]

When you say "Music Man iron," are we talking PT, OT, or both?

Anybody?

[dogears]

Both.

When you say "Music Man iron," are we talking PT, OT, or both?

Anybody?

[Gibson]

Scott. Thanks for the comparison. I find it hard to tell the differences personally. I think the differences are very subtle. I know there's alot of variables when trying to compare amps by clips. I guess you really need to hear or try the amps in person to get the full impact of the way they sound and respond.
Anyway, both sound great. Great playing also.

[Structo]

...

[Reverb]

Ojai is as you guys surmised. Skyline High Plate. Secret is in how you set the stack. I personally like using the 30% pots like the real deal. Also, OD trim is fairly low inside.

Here are my settings, using 30% taper where all audio pots go.

Input gain 50% - audio 30%
Treble 25-30% - linear
Mids 45-50% - audio 30%
Bass 50%-55% - audio 30%
OD Gain - 50% - linear
OD Level - 50% - linear
Master - 50% - audio 30%
Presence - 30% - linear



There are a few minor deviations from the norm that make a subtle difference, but a good 80s Skyline build will get you close.

You do need to have a big master bright cap and then use 150-250pf per cable hookup between your Dumbleator and amp..... This is crucial!

Thanks for listening guys!

Scott love both clips, probably would pick the GW if I had to pick up.

Can you explain the 150-250pf per cable hookup........
What exactly or how exactly is this done. Is this a cable with a cap on it??

[LPSGME]

Ojai is as you guys surmised. Skyline High Plate. Secret is in how you set the stack. I personally like using the 30% pots like the real deal. Also, OD trim is fairly low inside.

You do need to have a big master bright cap and then use 150-250pf per cable hookup between your Dumbleator and amp..... This is crucial!

Thanks for listening guys!

Scott love both clips, probably would pick the GW if I had to pick up.

Can you explain the 150-250pf per cable hookup........
What exactly or how exactly is this done. Is this a cable with a cap on it??

I'm also confused about this and a couple of related points. So please do explain...

In a prior post Scott said:
This is HRM with no Bluesmaster. Standard PI and stuff. I added a whole bunch of little ceramics to my loop to simulate the capacitive losses of the cable. My loop is built in so there is none of the high end smoothing going on.
http://www.scottlernermusic.com/2008/FatWerks185bc.mp3

Question 1: So if a short cable is used to loop the Dumbleator, is the ideal then to add some caps across the AMP's loop jacks... and if so which amp loop jacks, the In or Out or both?

Question 2: I removed the Master Vol bright cap from my HRM is effort to tone down the highs. But then I didn't have a D'lator at the time.

But also, I see that the Master on the HRM is bypassed when the OD is active, unlike #124 where both the clean and OD signal go to the Master.

So it is preferable (from your experience) to have the Master Vol (and it's bright cap) in circuit for both the clean and OD settings?

Question 3: I've read some confusing references to the parallel 250Pf/220K that comes after the Master Vol on #124. In the schematic that I see, it runs in series from the Master Vol to the PI (and used) only when nothing is plugged into the loop jacks; and that is what I've read some people say. Yet it seems I've read others say that it is active when the loop is used. I know it isn't even part of my HRM's design, but I was just wondering about it in context of other designs as it bypasses highs (as I see it) when there is no loop is used, and is not in circuit when a loop is used (leaving comparably less highs).

And please... anyone explain - in case Scott is away and doesn't see this.

[Structo]

I can't really help too much with the earlier questions other than if you use a D'Lator you should use a bright cap on the master. How big is a matter of taste. I have a 47pf on mine.

The 220K/250pf network is soldered to the send and return jacks and is only active when there are plugs in the jacks.
I believe it is an effort to retain the highs when using the loop.

Cables do play a major role in these amps, as you probably know all caps have a capacitance rating per foot.
When this number gets too high it will start chopping off the high end.

So personally I try to use low pf cables and right now I have two 15ft cables to and from my pedal board.
Then I have two low pf cables to and from my tuner into the input.

The more cables you add to an amp the better chance of changing the tone.
If it's a real bright amp it may benefit from a higher pf/ft but if not then you have to watch how much you use.

I had this one cable that absolutely robbed the high end of the amp.
At first I was like, wtf? Then I realized I had used a different cable from what I normally used.

[LPSGME]

I can't really help too much with the earlier questions other than if you use a D'Lator you should use a bright cap on the master. How big is a matter of taste. I have a 47pf on mine.

The 220K/250pf network is soldered to the send and return jacks and is only active when there are plugs in the jacks.
I believe it is an effort to retain the highs when using the loop.

Thanks, now I see it correctly. My brain must have been working backwards.

Still, if the 220K/250pf network and MV bright cap boost the highs pre and post loop, respectively, then wouldn't removing them make it unnecessary to employ a high capacitance cable (as would roll them off) - as Scott notes is necessary?

Or is the sound (that Scott demoed) only attainable when the highs are thus boosted while being rolled off by loop cable capacitance?

[Structo]

I think that unless you are running the same rack gear as Scott it's hard to draw comparisons.
Best off just trying to tune your amp to what you are running.

For instance in my amp right now with the D'lator I am very happy except my OD tone is a bit darker than I would like.
The Clean is perfect.
So first I may play with the grid resistors in the OD section by lowering them a bit to see if it allows more highs, then next would be a bypass or coupling cap change.

I have 4.7uF bypass on all right now.

[LPSGME]

I think that unless you are running the same rack gear as Scott it's hard to draw comparisons.
Best off just trying to tune your amp to what you are running.

For instance in my amp right now with the D'lator I am very happy except my OD tone is a bit darker than I would like.
The Clean is perfect.
So first I may play with the grid resistors in the OD section by lowering them a bit to see if it allows more highs, then next would be a bypass or coupling cap change.

I have 4.7uF bypass on all right now.

...And you can't get enough highs even with a bright cap on the MV and a 220k/250pf network like #124?

My HRM's Master Vol had a bright cap, but HRM doesn't even use the MV when in OD . Still everything I did was aimed at taming and soothing the highs (clean or OD).

I have a feeling that my OT is a bit more busy and brittle in the high end than something like an old Fender would be; and I would have changed it to a vintage OT long ago if knew what to do to power the relays and had the time. Just listening to the difference between the Fender and MM iron make me think there has too be a noticeable difference between them and what came on this HRM.

[Structo]

Yeah weird isn't it?

I do have a 47pf on the master.

My OT is a Fender Prosonic.