Almost there... two more questions

[tsl602000]

Hi all,
I've been tweaking my ODS clone for a while now and I'm almost there tone wise.
I'm a strat player and I don't care much for the RF and or LC tones.
I exchanged the .01/250K mid section for a .05/100K and I'm not so sure I like it. Is it true that the .05/100k gives you a more "mid range sound"?
Because that's what I'm hearing and don't like it too much.

My overdrive channel is absolutely gorgeous now, but I don't like the cleans too much. Too much attack or compression and middy sounding. I'm shooting more towards a Blackface sound.

Also, what can I do to overdrive the clean channel a bit more?

[greiswig]

Is it true that the .05/100k gives you a more "mid range sound"?

I'm going on memory of my own tinkerings here, so this may not be completely accurate, but...

The answer depends partly on the mid pot setting. For a given setting (12:00, for example) the 250k pot would give you more mids than the 100k pot would. It's rolling off less of the mids.

The larger capacitor widens the "dip" that you can take from the mids. So for a given mid pot setting below the maximum, and with the same pot resistance, a larger cap will sound less midrange-ey because a wider part of the audio spectrum is being shunted to ground.

But the term midrange covers a pretty broad part of the spectrum. It might help to know whether you're having a hard time with low mids or high mids or what?

[Bob-I]

This is one of the reasons I built a 3 channel amp. The Dumble cleans are beautiful, but not Fender BF Like at all. In fact the Dumble is really a single channel so any mods you make to the clean.... but you know that.

Anything you do will be a compromise. Sorry.

[tsl602000]

I know it'll never be a clean Fender and anything I do is a compromise, but I'm sure I can voice this amp a little better to my liking.
The mid I'm talking about is low- to mid-mid.

Also, what can I do (besides running a booster in the front) to overdrive the first stage a bit more? Turning up the clean volume to 10 gives a cool sound, but that way I can barely level the OD with the clean.

[Fischerman]

Do you have a Deep switch? The Deep switch sucks mids out and reduces gain a little...sounds like it's just what you want. Of course, then when you switch to OD your Deep switch will still be on.

[ayan]

Is it true that the .05/100k gives you a more "mid range sound"?

I'm going on memory of my own tinkerings here, so this may not be completely accurate, but...

The answer depends partly on the mid pot setting. For a given setting (12:00, for example) the 250k pot would give you more mids than the 100k pot would. It's rolling off less of the mids.

However, the 250K pot is audio and the 100K is linear (in the real amps). Thus the earlier, classic EQ (w/100KL mid pot) is definitely more midrangey than the Skyliner (250KA mid pot) at a 12 o'clock setting. In addition, replacing the .05uF mirange cap with a .01uF one will cause the lower frequencies (bass and low midrange) to be emphasized in the Skyliner EQ.

If the bass is set low and the midrange high, the Skyliner EQ can approximate the Classic, but it is not quite the same. To me, the Classic is a little closer to a Boogie in sound, very smooth and with emphasis on the higher mids; this is the best EQ for a Strat, IMHO. For a Tele, the Skyliner rules. And for humbuckers, it depends: if you like a fat bridge humbucker sound, the Skyliner is probably better; but if you spend a lot of time on the neck pickup, you may like the Classic EQ better.

Because of the added low end in the Skyliner EQ, the loss of bass when using the traditional Dumble preamp boost is much more noticeable than with the Classic EQ. For clean playing exclusively, I think the Skyliner EQ is nicer.

Your mileage may vary, of course. Cheers,

Gil

[TimS]

However, the 250K pot is audio and the 100K is linear (in the real amps). Thus the earlier, classic EQ (w/100KL mid pot) is definitely more midrangey than the Skyliner (250KA mid pot) at a 12 o'clock setting. In addition, replacing the .05uF mirange cap with a .01uF one will cause the lower frequencies (bass and low midrange) to be emphasized in the Skyliner EQ.

If the bass is set low and the midrange high, the Skyliner EQ can approximate the Classic, but it is not quite the same. To me, the Classic is a little closer to a Boogie in sound, very smooth and with emphasis on the higher mids; this is the best EQ for a Strat, IMHO. For a Tele, the Skyliner rules. And for humbuckers, it depends: if you like a fat bridge humbucker sound, the Skyliner is probably better; but if you spend a lot of time on the neck pickup, you may like the Classic EQ better.

Because of the added low end in the Skyliner EQ, the loss of bass when using the traditional Dumble preamp boost is much more noticeable than with the Classic EQ. For clean playing exclusively, I think the Skyliner EQ is nicer.

Your mileage may vary, of course. Cheers,

Gil

Does this assume the same slope resistor for each? I seem to remember dogears (and possibly you as well) saying that the classic EQ (.05uF/100KL) works better with the 100k slope resistor than the 150k. Is that change included in your above statement, or are you talking about keeping the slope resistor constant and just changing the midrange setup?

Also, as long as we're on the subject, how does the .02uF midcap I've seen some people talk about fit in sonically with the others? And if someone wanted to make his amp switchable between the classic and either the skyliner or .02 midrange settings, which slope resistor value would you recommend?

Thanks.

[tsl602000]

I tried a deep switch and although I really liked the effect on my clean, it ruined the OD.
I have a mid switch installed that seems to give this amp an overall boost that I really like in OD.

I put the .01 cap back in, but kept the 100k (linear) mid pot. I like this way better.

[odourboy]

I put the .01 cap back in, but kept the 100k (linear) mid pot. I like this way better.

You and me both!

[ayan]

[quote="TimS
Does this assume the same slope resistor for each? I seem to remember dogears (and possibly you as well) saying that the classic EQ (.05uF/100KL) works better with the 100k slope resistor than the 150k. Is that change included in your above statement, or are you talking about keeping the slope resistor constant and just changing the midrange setup?

Also, as long as we're on the subject, how does the .02uF midcap I've seen some people talk about fit in sonically with the others? And if someone wanted to make his amp switchable between the classic and either the skyliner or .02 midrange settings, which slope resistor value would you recommend?

Thanks. [/quote]

I can only speak for myself... I have seen about 3 amps with high plate load values and "Classic" EQ, and none had a 100K slope resistor; all had 150K carbon film slopes. I know Scott mentioned the 100K before, and maybe even BRandon brough it up too? I am not sure whether these guys have seen these types of amps or if they were speculating. Earlier (70s) amps had 100K plates and 100K slopes, with the Classic EQ.

To the other comment about the Deep switch ruining the lead sound, amazingly enough, I think it really sounds great and takes down the honkiness of the preamp boost, which is a nice touch IMHO. For what it's worth, back in the early to mid 80s, when LC's amp Deep switch was most likely wired like a Deep switch (we know it is now a Mid switch), Carlton had that thing on all the time.

As far as .02uF midrange caps go, I think Scott likes them. They may have been spotted in isolated amps here and there, but by and large, Dumble used .05uF and later .01uF.

Gil

[greiswig]

I put the .01 cap back in, but kept the 100k (linear) mid pot. I like this way better.

You and me both!

Try a .022uF and a parallel resistor across the pot to get around 170ohms. (EDIT: 170k ohms, and the cap mentioned is the mid cap)

[tsl602000]

Try a .022uF and a parallel resistor across the pot to get around 170ohms.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean...

[greiswig]

Try a .022uF and a parallel resistor across the pot to get around 170ohms.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean...

I can see why! For one thing, there's a mistake in my original post.

Okay...instead of a .01 or a .05uF mid cap, try a .022. The mid pot acts as a variable resistor (wiper and one side are connected), so by putting a resistor in parallel with a 250k pot, you can make the pot whatever value you feel like. In my case, I settled on 170k ohms (NOT 170 ohms! That is the mistake) It seemed to work better with my Strat and my PRS with Z-90 pickups.

[tsl602000]

ah, ok. To be honest I didn't even see the "K" was missing. You're saying a a .022/170K would probably sound even better for a strat.
Thanks, I'll give that a try.

[greiswig]

ah, ok. To be honest I didn't even see the "K" was missing. You're saying a a .022/170K would probably sound even better for a strat.
Thanks, I'll give that a try.

It *might* sound better. A lot depends on speaker, pickups in the guitar, etc.

I tried it thinking that it would be a poor compromise between the two classic tone stacks, and it surprised me a bit. If you do try it, I'll look forward to hearing back from you on how you think it sounds.