ODS 101 fired up

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roknroll
Posts: 225
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by roknroll »

dogears wrote:Try replacing all silver mica caps with ceramic. Do not use over 10pf on the global master. Replace all signal resistors with carbon film, except the cathodes and plates. Use RN65 on the plates.

No Dumble I have ever seen had 1uf on CL2. Doesn't sound very good to me. You may want to try a smaller CL2 coupler (.02-.033) That may clean things up.

Nice playing btw.
Dogears
Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:46 am you posted the following
"Only CL2 gets a lower value bypass cap. 4.7 on CL1, OD1 and OD2 I like 1.2uf to 1.5uf on CL2". In one post the CL2 is ok to lower, in the other the advice is the reverse.
Please clarify
Regards
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Bob-I
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by Bob-I »

roknroll wrote:Dogears
Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:46 am you posted the following
"Only CL2 gets a lower value bypass cap. 4.7 on CL1, OD1 and OD2 I like 1.2uf to 1.5uf on CL2". In one post the CL2 is ok to lower, in the other the advice is the reverse.
Please clarify
Regards
LOL... I love Scott, great player and great ears but at times he's like a woman about his amps, changes his mind often..... wait ... so do I :oops:

In any case, the key to the right tone in the amps is limiting the bandwidth in the right locations to prevent muddyness and get that singing tone. You can't go wrong by playing with these cap values.
dogears
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by dogears »

I'm def a woman..... With all the latest circuit tweaks, I abandoned the small caps. Plus, like I also said, never seen a Dumble with them.
roknroll wrote:
dogears wrote:Try replacing all silver mica caps with ceramic. Do not use over 10pf on the global master. Replace all signal resistors with carbon film, except the cathodes and plates. Use RN65 on the plates.

No Dumble I have ever seen had 1uf on CL2. Doesn't sound very good to me. You may want to try a smaller CL2 coupler (.02-.033) That may clean things up.

Nice playing btw.
Dogears
Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:46 am you posted the following
"Only CL2 gets a lower value bypass cap. 4.7 on CL1, OD1 and OD2 I like 1.2uf to 1.5uf on CL2". In one post the CL2 is ok to lower, in the other the advice is the reverse.
Please clarify
Regards
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Bob-I
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Location: Hillsborough NJ

Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by Bob-I »

dogears wrote:I'm def a woman..... With all the latest circuit tweaks, I abandoned the small caps. Plus, like I also said, never seen a Dumble with them.
I think at this point we're WAY beyond copying Dumbles. Good reference, but that's all.
roknroll
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:13 am
Location: New York

Just some observations.

Post by roknroll »

Starting off with the ODS 101 schem there were some minor problems/adjustments that I felt were not right and wrote in to the board for help which again I thank you for.
The most drastic change was changing the plate load resistors over to RN65 spec. I know it has been repeated numerous times on this board but some how I could not bring myself to acknowledge that the plate load resistors could play such a major change in the tone and feel of the amp. Well, boy was I wrong. When I played the amp for the first time after swapping out the plate loads,,, all I could say is holy sh%t. Wow, what a difference. So for any newbies out there, take it seriously, they do make a difference.
The problem with "tubbiness" and mush on the lower strings using the neck humbucker was only controllable by swapping out out cl2 bipass cap for 2.2uf. I did try Dogears suggestion to replace the .047 coupling cap with .033 and .022. I found it did not remove the problem and changed the tone of the amp too much. so back went the .047. While there may be other cures I have not tried yet, this change makes it usable.
I have read suggestions here on the board and I think actually have seen some schems with >270pf snubbers. I tried 330, 360, 390. To my ear even going to 330pf was to compressed. The 270pf snubbers stay.
The 270 pf bright cap on the clean channel seems to harsh in high gain mode. While it might actually be a good thing in a band situation to bring the guitar riffs out front with some bite, playing alone at home it is too harsh. I am going to try 250 and 220 when I get a chance and report back. It is possible however that a darker speaker might be in order.
I was pretty amazed that I could get good tones even with the tone pots dimed. I then tried diming the tone pots and the presence control. It still sounded good. There are so many great tones to be had in one amp.
The presence control really makes the tone "husky" (a good thing) at around 7 on the dial. I mention this because alot of presence controls tend to be overbearing when you crank them.
Up there in importance with the change in plate loads I would say changing the 220k resistor before the 100k overdrive trimmer to 180k allowed me to tune in the 235k magic between .047 coupling cap and the grid of OD1. With a 220k in place I could not come any closer than 249k. With the 180k in place I had no trouble dialing the 235k goal and immediately noticed a major change in "sing" and clarity.
These are just some of my observations and humble opinions.
Again all, thanks for the help :!:
roknroll
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:13 am
Location: New York

Re: Just some observations.

Post by roknroll »

roknroll wrote:Starting off with the ODS 101 schem there were some minor problems/adjustments that I felt were not right and wrote in to the board for help which again I thank you for.
The most drastic change was changing the plate load resistors over to RN65 spec. I know it has been repeated numerous times on this board but some how I could not bring myself to acknowledge that the plate load resistors could play such a major change in the tone and feel of the amp. Well, boy was I wrong. When I played the amp for the first time after swapping out the plate loads,,, all I could say is holy sh%t. Wow, what a difference. So for any newbies out there, take it seriously, they do make a difference.
The problem with "tubbiness" and mush on the lower strings using the neck humbucker was only controllable by swapping out out cl2 bipass cap for 2.2uf. I did try Dogears suggestion to replace the .047 coupling cap with .033 and .022. I found it did not remove the problem and changed the tone of the amp too much. so back went the .047. While there may be other cures I have not tried yet, this change makes it usable.
I have read suggestions here on the board and I think actually have seen some schems with >270pf snubbers. I tried 330, 360, 390. To my ear even going to 330pf was to compressed. The 270pf snubbers stay.
The 270 pf bright cap on the clean channel seems to harsh in high gain mode. While it might actually be a good thing in a band situation to bring the guitar riffs out front with some bite, playing alone at home it is too harsh. I am going to try 250 and 220 when I get a chance and report back. It is possible however that a darker speaker might be in order.
I was pretty amazed that I could get good tones even with the tone pots dimed. I then tried diming the tone pots and the presence control. It still sounded good. There are so many great tones to be had in one amp.
The presence control really makes the tone "husky" (a good thing) at around 7 on the dial. I mention this because alot of presence controls tend to be overbearing when you crank them.
Up there in importance with the change in plate loads I would say changing the 220k resistor before the 100k overdrive trimmer to 180k allowed me to tune in the 235k magic between .047 coupling cap and the grid of OD1. With a 220k in place I could not come any closer than 249k. With the 180k in place I had no trouble dialing the 235k goal and immediately noticed a major change in "sing" and clarity.
These are just some of my observations and humble opinions.
Again all, thanks for the help :!:
Ok
Since that last post, all the coupling caps have been changed to the "proper" Orange Drop series. 5uf went back on clean2. Clean master and OD master both have 15.2-15.4 pf bipass caps on them. What is amazing is the difference that literally a couple of picofards can make on the distortion tone. All non coupling caps changed to ceramic disc type. I've settled on 120pf for the bright cap.
The muddiness in the bass strings is still there but is manageable. When using the neck pu and a Strat, 0-1 (on a Fender style knob) is :D
Bridge pu 0-3 is :D
Humbuckers are pretty close to the previous.
I have to say that now, every time I pick up the guitar I find 2-3 hours have gone by. Sometimes I run down, turn on the amp, just to make sure it still sounds as good as it did 2 hours ago. And it does. :D
I have never played Stevie Ray type material ever. But while I was tweaking knobs I found a tone that had me trying to imitate him for 3 hours. It was amazing. The treble was such a sharp attack with no ice pick in site. The low end thunk was there and just the right amount of distortion dialed in. I actually found myself liking the Strat middle pu. :shock:
Don't let anyone ever say a Dumble can't crunch. Wow, the complexity of the chords is sick. The diversity in tones available in this one amp is dizzying. The clips I recorded months ago are not even close to the sound now. When I have a chance I will record some new clips.
Fellas, thanks for the knowledge.
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ayan
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by ayan »

Bob-I wrote:
dogears wrote:I'm def a woman..... With all the latest circuit tweaks, I abandoned the small caps. Plus, like I also said, never seen a Dumble with them.
I think at this point we're WAY beyond copying Dumbles. Good reference, but that's all.
Curious, I am not sure how to read the statement above in regards to being WAY beyond copying Dumble? I hardly see any original idea anywhere about these amps, from where I see things. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but changing the size of a cap is as original as any of us claiming to have invented the wheel... :) Once you have the architecture laid out, that's it. You may go up and down in values to match what your ears want to hear, but to me it's like siggesting you have designed a new tire because you only inflate it to 30 psi instead of the recommended 35 psi.

As far as the small bypass caps go, interestingly enough, I have seen amps with them. I think it's safe to conclude that some 1980-85 amps (or so) had them; not the silverface ones, but the early blackface ones. I think it's also a valid observation that the amps that had CL2 at 1uF did NOT have 100K plate load resistors.

Either way, it's certainly easy to hear that those earlier amps were brighter sounding than the later ones. Many early RF videos, for example, where he was playing a 335 on the neck pickup suggest his amp was a lot thinner sounding then than it became later. Also, Carlton debutted his Dumble on the "Friends" album, and it's a very bright sound, unlike later tones. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

Cheers,

Gil
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heisthl
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by heisthl »

ayan wrote: Carlton debutted his Dumble on the "Friends" album, and it's a very bright sound, unlike later tones. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

Cheers,

Gil
What amp did he use to get those amazing sustainy harmonics on the song "For Love Alone" on the '81 Strikes Twice Album? I loved that tone
Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
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ayan
Posts: 1340
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:04 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by ayan »

heisthl wrote:
ayan wrote: Carlton debutted his Dumble on the "Friends" album, and it's a very bright sound, unlike later tones. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

Cheers,

Gil
What amp did he use to get those amazing sustainy harmonics on the song "For Love Alone" on the '81 Strikes Twice Album? I loved that tone
That was LC's Boogie on the whole album. You may have seen videos os LC playing that amp live (there is a good Montreaux Jazz 1979 that is pretty cool and that can be bought from eBay from time to time) and it sounds fatter than on the record. The reason, according to Jay Graydon who was 2nd engineer on that album, is that LC placed his amp with the back close to a glass window in the studio, thus making his tone brighter.

To the best of my knoeledge, "Friends" was the first time LC used a Dumble on a record.

Gil
groovtubin
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Re: Advice appreciated

Post by groovtubin »

roknroll wrote:
dogears wrote:Try replacing all silver mica caps with ceramic. Do not use over 10pf on the global master. Replace all signal resistors with carbon film, except the cathodes and plates. Use RN65 on the plates.

No Dumble I have ever seen had 1uf on CL2. Doesn't sound very good to me. You may want to try a smaller CL2 coupler (.02-.033) That may clean things up.

Nice playing btw.
Dogears
Changed over to RN65 resistors and put back 5uf cathode bipass cap on cl2. While I have to admit the lead tones sing and are quite amazing the neck tones from the A and E string are still muddy. when the lead pickup is at at it's best, the neck pickup is at it's worst. Even when bringing down overall distortion levels the lower strings are never tight. The D, G B and high E strings sound great on the neck pu but below that is where the fartiness begins. Clean, the amp sounds wonderful, and through the effects loop it's magic.
Thanks for your input.
JK
IMHO, these amps were built w/strats or tele`s in mind, the 22k input buffer is @ a dead giveaway..
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heisthl
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by heisthl »

I'm in the process of tweaking a Bassman that I converted to non-HRM w/loop (complete redo except transformers and tube sockets) and I tried real hard to keep the CL2 bypass cap at 5uf but the amp has more overtones and sounds better both clean and dirty with a 1uf there. Any suggestions on what I might change to like the 5uf there? Plates are at 194.200 206 and 214 and I've tried it with the loop totally disconnected and out of circuit.
This amp, like every other clone I've built with a loop, always sounds a little better with the loop engaged.
Is the "235K magic" referred to earlier in this post between the .047 and the 68K grid resistor (instead of the grid)? I generally use 180K to feed the trim pot and have no trouble setting it for 235K between the .047 and the 68K. This is not my favorite setting as it seems to sound much like a distortion pedal - I usually adjust for about half as much distortion with the trim pot set between 30-40%.
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Former owner of Music Mechanix
www.RedPlateAmps.com
dogears
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by dogears »

Try a .02uf CL2 cap. 10uf on that bypass. Change net to 220K into 100k. 10pf on master. Seems to work great for most. More bass on CL2 cleans things up imo.
roknroll
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Re: ODS 101 fired up

Post by roknroll »

Put a 10uf on clean 2. Sounds great with single coils but humbuckers need bass rolled way back and clean volume less than 4 when in od mode. the new clips i posted are in the dumbleclone esquire folder at http://briefcase.yahoo.com/roknroll50 . The guitar is a warmoth swamp ash body with no pickguard, controls routed through the back of the body, with a 2007 fender tele neck, seymour duncan jerry donahue in the bridge, joe barden compensated saddle (which works well by the way, I am just out of tune). Recorded straight to soundcard with a little delay or reverb added afterwards.
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