Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

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dguidry
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Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by dguidry »

I've had the great pleasure of reading though all of your posts and have learned a tremendous amount about Dumbles. I've built about 10 amps and thought it was finally time to go for it on an ODS and have been experimenting with a 18W clone that I never really liked. I've been planning a more formal build and trying to make all the tough decision that we all make when we choose to adopt this or that design principle.

For some reason the power supply filter architecture has really perplexed me. I had always assumed that totem pole filter caps were simply used to solve the unavailability/expense of caps with high enough working voltages (which we can all agree is not the problem it would have been in the '60s).

The fact that HAD switched gears the opposite direction in later amps seemed backwards, although from the posts I take him for a scrounger, so I wasn't too alarmed. Reading posts I found some builders that found that using totem poles had some effect on the amp performance other than cap longevity. I try to partially disengage my classically trained engineering brain on tube amps because I know that things that EEs might normally write off as trivial turn out to be absolutely critical.

Well, alas, I was unsuccessful on this one and put pencil to paper and I think I can put this one to rest, hopefully permanently. I've attached a picture showing two networks that we might choose for PS filter stages.

The network on the left uses a totem pole config and the one on the right does not. I set the variables representing the capacitance and bleeder resistance so that they would be equivalent between networks. I then solved the complex impedance of both (s is the Laplace transform variable used to analyze complex impedances and for simplicity sake is equal to 2*Pi*freq). You don't need to be an engineer to see that solving the two equations yields the same answer for both networks (i.e. they are equivalent).

What does all this mumbo jumbo mean? You can replace a totem pole cap section with a single cap and parallel resistor. If the resistor does indeed effect the transient response, add it. It won't hurt anything and will have the added benefit of draining the caps when the power is shut off. So, if 220k is standard for current totem pole designs, use 440k on single cap stages and you should see the benefit, if there is one to be seen.

If we think about why totem pole stages ever had the equalizing bleeder resistors in the first place we need to look at an electrolytic cap at DC. It should ideally be infinitely resistive, but it is of course not. This parasitic leakage resistance varies wildly, so without a much smaller parallel resistance to dominate, the DC voltage sharing of the caps would not be equal and we could over stress one of the caps and cause a catastrophic failure. Avoiding the discussion over whether or not the UL would agree that this is a good practice in 2007, it seems that we can put this one to rest....I hope :D

So in summary...Use totem poles if you like or use single cap stages. If you add 220k on totem pole and 440k bleeders on single cap stages they should give you the same result.

Thoughts, comments, pleads for brevity :D

Thanks,
Dave

Dallas, TX
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Bob-I
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by Bob-I »

You know, I thought like you, it was just for voltage handling, but I recently vuilt an amp for a friend using totem poles across the board. The feel is different, I can't say exactly how it's different, but I suspect all of those balance resistors make the volume envelop change.
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heisthl
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by heisthl »

I think it was easier to get high voltage(over 500V) caps in the 60's than it is now. Maybe you meant to say that.
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dguidry
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by dguidry »

I guess my point is that if you do only use a single cap, you should be able to get any sort of transient effect by placing a 440k bleeder resistor across the cap. From a network theory perspective they are the same.

I can understand using the totem pole on the first stage (since the peaks of the AC haven't been filtered out yet), but as you walk downt the dropping string, the voltages are not that high anymore. You see Fender do this on 6L6 blackface amps.

I had the perception that HV caps were easier to get now than they used to be. I guess I have no basis for this, it was just an assumption.

So, I would be interested to see if adding a 440k bleeder on single cap stages gives this perceived difference in transient response as full totem pole supplies.

Thanks,
Dave

Dallas, TX
Aharon
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by Aharon »

One question to the EEs,maybe this is silly if you have the knowledge but here it goes........I've been working on an amp that needs a voltage doubler so I have to use a totem pole arrangement.......should the equalizing resistors be used or it's enough that the caps are rated for more than the PTs output voltage?
The example I'm following has caps rated 350V,the PT puts out 190V and the output after the doubler should be around 450V.

Thanks for any help...........I haven't been able to get an answer for this one anywhere.
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tonelab2
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by tonelab2 »

Your voltage after the doubler will be over the 500v mark (without sag) (190x1.414x2=537.32) but with the examples I've seen 350v caps shouldn't be a problem. The one's I have seen ( 60's tube amps) didn't bother with resistors in the doubler circuit. Only recently scored a yamaha amp from the 60's that used 250v caps in the doubler circuit ( 195v from trans) ( running PP 7868 tubes) and the caps checked out A o.k after 40+ years (obviously the EEs at yamaha took into consideration the sag of the circuit to use such low voltage caps). May help if you post a diagram of the circuit you intend to use.
Aharon
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by Aharon »

Thanks tonelab2.
I dont have a diagram but the amp in question is a D'Lite...basically I'm going with the D'Lite PS but the first node would be a voltage doubler.
I was thinking 2 220uF/350V caps in place of the 2 100uF then take A+ from the first node and the rest the same,except mabe change the 500 ohm/10W into a 1K/10W just to bring the voltage down a bit.
I'll probably run 7868s and also have octal sockets wired in.
Thanks for the help!!.
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brownnote
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by brownnote »

I answered this question on the BN forum.

Look at your voltage doubler as part of your rectifier, those 2 caps in the voltage doubler are not part of the filter scheme of a D'Lite.

The "totem pole" config. of the series connected 100uf/350v caps with the 220K balancing resistors is post-voltage doubler.

You will be adding 2 more caps to the existing power supply of the D'Lite, those 2 caps are each handling half-wave rectification.

If you were using a PT with secondaries in the 325v-340v range you wouldn't need the voltage doubler, right?

So they are 2 different "systems". The voltage doubler is just giving you B+ in the desired voltage range.

The subsequent totem pole that sums to 50uf/700v is your first node of the power supply and dropping string and has nothing to do with the functionality of the voltage doubler.

So leave those balancing resistors alone and place your voltage doubler prior to the filter board, and adjust your dropping string accordingly (currently shown as 1K, 22K, 2.2K) to dial in the voltages you need for the D'Lite.

Sorry for being so redundant...
Make sense?
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Aharon
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by Aharon »

Probably I was being redundant asking for more details.
Thanks brownnote,now it makes sense,I somehow was stuck to the notion of the first node being the doubler and eliminating the first D'Lite node but YES! the doubler has nothing to do with the D'Lite PS......duh!.
This also solves the problem of having to use 7868s,now I can use 6V6s.

So a 10W resistor between the doubler and the PS should be enough right?
Thanks a million guys,I'm doing metalwork on the chassie as I type this...
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brownnote
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by brownnote »

Yeah you can use the OT, but 7868's are running at 6.6K, and 6V6's want to run at 8K so it's likely that that the OT will be mismatched, it's probably better suited for 6L6's.
Remember kids...Always adjust for minimum smoke!

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Aharon
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by Aharon »

Thanks brownnote........it might just be a nice sounding amp when I'm done.
Priceless help,thanks
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David Root
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by David Root »

I read all this with great interest. My current build is using totem pole filter caps on every node except the 6550s' screens and the PI, purely for the usual reason, the cap mfr I'm using doesn't make the uFs I need in the voltages I need. Naturally I used 220k metal film bleeders on all of them, except the 6550s' plates which are 2W metal oxide.

I'm currently replacing the PT with a larger one so I can get 50W after feedback, but I will be interested to hear if there is a tonal difference from my previous build, which used the same caps but not in totem pole. This (current build) PS is designed to be fast, as it's a 4-stage peamp, and uses a fast full bridge soft recovery rectifier.

Is this effect akin to the use of small bypass caps on large filter caps that you see in high end audio? If so, must be a different mechanism.
dguidry
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Re: Totem Pole PS Filter Caps...Hopefully a final word

Post by dguidry »

David,

I would be interested in your feedback once you get the new amp up and running.

The use of small bypass caps in parallel with a larger one is usually to compensate for the poor performance of large caps at higher frequencies. It is very common in almost all electrical designs with DC power supplies. The effect in guitar amps would probably be less important because we are typically only trying to reject 60Hz+harmonics and recover from large transient events (like hard strumming) (both of which are low frequency). Hi-fi amps need very good performance to 20kHz, so they would need a better performaning power supply.

Dave
groovtubin
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totem pole caps

Post by groovtubin »

after playing (2) of these awhile, and also having a KILLER 50 watter based on a early 70`s circuit, the early model is looser in feel, and a BLAST ta play, the totems give it a MARSHALLESQUE feel to me, and a tighter more well defined note. as well as REFINEMENT out the ying yang, i like BOTH just as much..the HRM is a blast t aplay as well, esp sounding so much like Eric Johnson`s lead tone! ;)
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