Is "BLOOM" a sustainy, harmonicy, type of thing?

[talbany]

Here you can hear it rather easily.. Around 15 sec into the clip you hear the initial attack/ drop/ bloom/ feedback harmonic takes over..You can also hear a burst of swells around 1:00 into it..Depending on the proximity of the cab/guitar and intensity of the swell goes right into feedback..Lower intensity swells just seem to want to hang on the fundamental for as long as you like.. OD no boost..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyB4HedEOvs

Tony

[1000uf]

Here you can hear it rather easily.. Around 15 sec into the clip you hear the initial attack/ drop/ bloom/ feedback harmonic takes over..You can also hear a burst of swells around 1:00 into it..Depending on the proximity of the cab/guitar and intensity of the swell can either go right into feedback..Lower intensity swells just seem to want to hang on the fundamental for as long as you like..This is just the OD no boost..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyB4HedEOvs

Tony

what you can also hear easily is you putting vibrato on the end of just about every long fretted note in that video. that is more you doing that to the amp than the amp doing it by itself. proximity just increases the chances of the already vibrating string riding the wave of a feedback loop, and there are2 things that come into factor there. the initial attack of the string, and the actual length of the string that is vibrating/what fret you play the note. Say you set the amp for a good distorted tone and on a les paul play a d on the 7th fret of the g string and get in the proximity to make it feedback and flip bloom whatever you want to call it. now play the same note with the same pick attack on the 3rd fret of the b string. what happened? now comes the time to strongly consider that it's more the player/how the note is being played more than the amp and what make of a resistor is on the grids of v2. Now do the same with the amp set up the same way using a strat. what happened?

if you are intentionally keeping the string moving against the fret, on the oposite side of the string which the initial attack to getting moving in the first place, you can get a similar effect with any amp on the cusp of feeding back on its own. the argument there would be "but it doesn't sound as good when it does that", and the point would be taken by just about everyone on this forum. reality is, how many times does a player use that effect in a live performance before it becomes overused and unpleasant for the listener.

[talbany]

reality is, how many times does a player use that effect in a live performance before it becomes overused and unpleasant for the listener.

Dah!!..It's a clip demonstrating Bloom & feedback!!


T

[Max]

I really have no idea what you are talking about in relation to bloom in your above post.

Bloom is simply what a note does after you pick it.

In these three videos Andrés Segovia and Joe Pass demonstrate how to tell a note what to do after you pick it.

However, your link here......
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu. ... e.htm#sub2
.....shows pretty much exactly what I was saying.

Then the attached ADSR graph might be suited to explain in more detail how such a graph of a "blooming" guitar tone does IYO look like?

@vibratoking:

When thinking about which kind of guitar amp circuit might support "bloom" it might IMO be helpful thinking about how to synthesize a "blooming guitar note" e.g. based on the Karplus-Strong algorithm: http://www.ee.columbia.edu/~ronw/dsp/

"Applying ADSR to Karplus-Strong":

"ADSR stands for attack, decay, sustain, and release and is used to model the timbre of an instrument. The timbre or tone quality is determined by various factors such as the way the sound is produced and the material of the instrument. Different families of instruments have their own characteristic ADSR profiles. The attack refers to the phase in which the sound is initiated. This could be the fast attack of a strum on a guitar or the slower one of a pipe organ. The decay phase occurs immediately after the attack impulse and describes how rapidly the sound dies. Some instruments like a drum have extremely fast decay and the sound is virtually nonexistent after the attack. The sustain profile of an instrument refers to how long the sound resonates for when it is played. String instruments such as a violin have an extremely long sustain because the violin’s sound box is receiving constant vibrational energy from the bowed string. Finally, the release phase describes how rapidly the sound fades away once the instrument is not being played.

The ADSR curve models different instruments by their temporal characteristics. Instruments have varying degrees of the abruptness of the attack, the initial decay in sound, how long the sound resonates for without appreciable attenuation, and how quickly the sound fades away at the end.

The guitar has a fairly abrupt attack due to the method of playing through plucks and strums. The rapid decay is a result of the non harmonic frequencies fading quickly leaving only the fundamental frequency and its harmonics. The sustain and release phases are merged in this case since the sound just fades away slowly.

In order to synthesize different sounding instruments, the ADSR envelope could be applied directly to the output of the Karplus-Strong algorithm. Since the algorithm models string and certain percussion instruments, there were limitations on the diversity of instruments that could be synthesized using this technique. After modeling an instrument’s temporal characteristics with an ADSR envelope, one could apply it to the output of the Karplus-Strong by point-wise multiplication. By using ADSR, we were able to manipulate the guitar sounding output of the Karplus-Strong algorithm to sound like different instruments such as an organ or a bell."
Source: http://cnx.org/content/m19007/latest/

Might be interesting in this context:
http://vbn.aau.dk/files/46619185/TMoMS.pdf
http://www.romyfitz.com/research/thesis.pdf (esp. chapters 3 and 4)

BTW: In human perception AFAIK re-cognizing is most important. So AFAIK a lot of what we call "hearing" isn't similar to recording something with a microphone but consists of perceptual connotations ("violin") evoked by acoustic triggers. Example: Most people won't have any problem at all to re-cognize the voice of a good friend thru a cell phone even when it's very distorted etc.

Cheers and a nice sunday to all here!

Max

[tag101]

Here you can hear it rather easily.. Around 15 sec into the clip you hear the initial attack/ drop/ bloom/ feedback harmonic takes over..You can also hear a burst of swells around 1:00 into it..Depending on the proximity of the cab/guitar and intensity of the swell goes right into feedback..Lower intensity swells just seem to want to hang on the fundamental for as long as you like.. OD no boost..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyB4HedEOvs

Tony

Hey Tony,
I do not mean to sound rude or anything, but to me, That video hides all the note bloom with feedback. Feedback like that really masks everything IMO. All amps do that in a similar fashion depending on gain, volume and distance to speakers. I do not consider feedback part of an amp or guitars "natural" bloom, just as I dont consider the "note flipping" part of the bloom. Its an effect IMO, being caused by what I do not know.

[tag101]

I really have no idea what you are talking about in relation to bloom in your above post.

Bloom is simply what a note does after you pick it.

In these three videos Andrés Segovia and Joe Pass demonstrate how to tell a note what to do after you pick it.

However, your link here......
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu. ... e.htm#sub2
.....shows pretty much exactly what I was saying.

Then the attached ADSR graph might be suited to explain in more detail how such a graph of a "blooming" guitar tone does IYO look like?

Ah! Thanks Max. Stylistic traits and picking nuances most certainly have an effect on a notes "bloom". IE: SLAM a note and it compresses at first before leveling out, pick real lightly and it seems to stay a lot more even. That being said, each instrument and amplifier has its own characteristics, including bloom, regardless of who is playing it. A big part of my attraction to the Tworock type 3 was exactly that. A softer attack and a slower bloom than its SS rectified counterparts. Hope you had a great weekend.

[talbany]

Tag
How about this one then without feedback.. Clean channel only no boost I am behind the wall (very little acoustic coupling)playing open strings..Amps master is on 3.. You can hear the fundamental note being played on the guitar slowly die but the amp generates the harmonic remains increasing in amplitude generating the feedback in some passes..Is this what you are talking about when you say note flipping..IMO..This is my definition of BLOOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... PAxZU&NR=1

Tony

[vibratoking]

In these three videos Andrés Segovia and Joe Pass demonstrate how to tell a note what to do after you pick it.

What three videos?

[tag101]

Tag
How about this one then without feedback.. Clean channel only no boost I am behind the wall (very little acoustic coupling)playing open strings..Amps master is on 3.. You can hear the fundamental note being played on the guitar slowly die but the amp generates the harmonic remains increasing in amplitude generating the feedback in some passes..Is this what you are talking about when you say note flipping..IMO..This is my definition of BLOOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... PAxZU&NR=1

Tony

Tony,
You can hear the amp feeding back like the volume is to high or the gain is way up. Thats not what I consider bloom. Thats pure feedback. Is it feeding back into the recorder maybe? Something seems amiss. It seems that would be unplayable. Maybe the amp is not shielded correctly? Open strings will feed back at a much lower volume, so not sure whats going on. My old 50 watt (1972) marshall was like that. I had to stand at certains spots and at certain angles on stage, or every note would just run away. Not very good for short phrases, but great for the metal hold the note stuff!

[talbany]

Maybe the amp is not shielded correctly?

[CHIP]

Tag
How about this one then without feedback.. Clean channel only no boost I am behind the wall (very little acoustic coupling)playing open strings..Amps master is on 3.. You can hear the fundamental note being played on the guitar slowly die but the amp generates the harmonic remains increasing in amplitude generating the feedback in some passes..Is this what you are talking about when you say note flipping..IMO..This is my definition of BLOOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... PAxZU&NR=1

Tony

Tony,
You can hear the amp feeding back like the volume is to high or the gain is way up. Thats not what I consider bloom. Thats pure feedback. Is it feeding back into the recorder maybe? Something seems amiss. It seems that would be unplayable. Maybe the amp is not shielded correctly? Open strings will feed back at a much lower volume, so not sure whats going on. My old 50 watt (1972) marshall was like that. I had to stand at certains spots and at certain angles on stage, or every note would just run away. Not very good for short phrases, but great for the metal hold the note stuff!

You're not familiar with Feedback City?
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=17438

[Max]

In these three videos Andrés Segovia and Joe Pass demonstrate how to tell a note what to do after you pick it.

What three videos?

Theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJrEl4Ns ... re=related

Practice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxU0Tzd ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXR_eLlZDAs

@talbany and tag101:

IMO it might be helpful to avoid mingling a discussion about the technical dimensions of what you call "bloom" with a discussion about the perceptual dimensions. Example: acoustic and/or electronic "feedback" might cause a sound perception but "feedback" isn't exactly what you perceive.

You could perhaps at first just try to describe* what exactly you perceive at which point of the ADSR graph by using descriptive terms. ("Does the perceived loudness change over time?" - "Does the perceived pitch change over time?" - "Does the perceived brightness change over time"? - etc.)?

Then based on a perhaps better understanding concerning what subjectiv perceptions you're referring to exactly and in detail it might be easier to discuss in a second step what might cause your perceptions in a technical sense (feedback, plucking technique, sag etc. etc.)?

*
"A sound can be described by its amplitude (volume) and its frequency (pitch). However, two sounds with the same frequency and amplitude can sound very different because of a third parameter known as timbre which encompasses all characteristics of the sound not associated with its amplitude or frequency. These characteristics include the envelope – an analysis of the sound, particularly its amplitude, in the time domain – and the spectrum – an analysis of the frequencies and harmonics, and of the sound in the frequency domain.

Musicians often use common adjectives such as "cool", "smooth", and "dry" to describe sounds. One might hypothesize at first that people of different musical backgrounds or different cultures might use different descriptive words to describe certain sounds. A study was conducted by Sarkar et. al. in order to investigate the relationship between auditory perception and language. A survey was given to 844 individuals of different musical backgrounds. Each subject was allowed to describe various sound samples with given words. Through a statistical analysis of the results, it was determined that musical background and training are weak factors in the description of sounds. Subjects tended to assign certain words to specific sounds regardless of musical or cultural background. These results suggest that a functional relationship exists between words and timbre, and these words correlate with features of the sound in both the time domain and the frequency domain. By creating a generalization of this mapping, one can then create a synthesizer that can create or modify sound inputs through the use of these adjectives – "make the sound sharper", for example – rather than with technical parameters, thereby making the process more intuitive for the user."

Source: http://murj.mit.edu/summaries/30

And last but not least a question in order to avoid misunderstandings on my part in regard to what you (and/or others here) call "bloom" and/or "note flipping": Do you (and/or others here) perceive what you call "bloom" and/or "note flipping" somewhere on the guitar track of the attached clip?

Cheers,

Max

[Structo]

This thread reminds me of the shimmer thread at The Gear Page that went on for a million pages.

[tag101]

In these three videos Andrés Segovia and Joe Pass demonstrate how to tell a note what to do after you pick it.

What three videos?

Theory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJrEl4Ns ... re=related

Practice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxU0Tzd ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXR_eLlZDAs

@talbany and tag101:

IMO it might be helpful to avoid mingling a discussion about the technical dimensions of what you call "bloom" with a discussion about the perceptual dimensions. Example: acoustic and/or electronic "feedback" might cause a sound perception but "feedback" isn't exactly what you perceive.

You could perhaps at first just try to describe* what exactly you perceive at which point of the ADSR graph by using descriptive terms. ("Does the perceived loudness change over time?" - "Does the perceived pitch change over time?" - "Does the perceived brightness change over time"? - etc.)?

Then based on a perhaps better understanding concerning what subjectiv perceptions you're referring to exactly and in detail it might be easier to discuss in a second step what might cause your perceptions in a technical sense (feedback, plucking technique, sag etc. etc.)?

*
"A sound can be described by its amplitude (volume) and its frequency (pitch). However, two sounds with the same frequency and amplitude can sound very different because of a third parameter known as timbre which encompasses all characteristics of the sound not associated with its amplitude or frequency. These characteristics include the envelope – an analysis of the sound, particularly its amplitude, in the time domain – and the spectrum – an analysis of the frequencies and harmonics, and of the sound in the frequency domain.

Musicians often use common adjectives such as "cool", "smooth", and "dry" to describe sounds. One might hypothesize at first that people of different musical backgrounds or different cultures might use different descriptive words to describe certain sounds. A study was conducted by Sarkar et. al. in order to investigate the relationship between auditory perception and language. A survey was given to 844 individuals of different musical backgrounds. Each subject was allowed to describe various sound samples with given words. Through a statistical analysis of the results, it was determined that musical background and training are weak factors in the description of sounds. Subjects tended to assign certain words to specific sounds regardless of musical or cultural background. These results suggest that a functional relationship exists between words and timbre, and these words correlate with features of the sound in both the time domain and the frequency domain. By creating a generalization of this mapping, one can then create a synthesizer that can create or modify sound inputs through the use of these adjectives – "make the sound sharper", for example – rather than with technical parameters, thereby making the process more intuitive for the user."

Source: http://murj.mit.edu/summaries/30

And last but not least a question in order to avoid misunderstandings on my part in regard to what you (and/or others here) call "bloom" and/or "note flipping": Do you (and/or others here) perceive what you call "bloom" and/or "note flipping" somewhere on the guitar track of the attached clip?

Cheers,

Max

Hey Max,
I agree with you that semantics is always a problem when trying to describe sounds. Any sounds, not just guitar or music! I do feel that the term "feedback" (within the guitar community) is a phenomenon that is recognized and understood by most, especially when given sonic examples of it, as in the earlier clips. I like that clip by the way, nice playing! No note flipping, (which I think should be readily apparent by the examples I have given of it), and no feedback. Every note that is played has bloom.

[Max]

No note flipping,..., and no feedback. Every note that is played has bloom.

Thank you for this clarifying commentary on the clip I posted. I understand.

This is the setup used for this clip:

62 strat, neck pickup > Monster Studio Pro 1000 > 2nd generation "pre-classic" ODS 50W > Marshall 4 x 12", Celestion G12M Pre-Rolas soldered for a total load of 4 OHM > Sennheiser MD 421 N > Telefunken TAB V76 > Mytek 8x192 > Logic 9

For the clean tone of the intro a Pearl Echo Orbit-1 has been used in front of the normal input of the ODS (clean channel).

For the lead tone the FET input and the OD channel have been used.

I agree with you that semantics is always a problem when trying to describe sounds. Any sounds, not just guitar or music!

Yes, of course. The research in this field (measurable dimensions of timbre e.g.) has been fueled in the last 15 or so years not at least by the growing interest of some industries (automotive and music – to name just two examples) in automatic timbre recognition and evaluation software e.g. for quality control applications and advanced search engines etc. Only some - more or less arbitrary - examples:

http://ir.lib.ncut.edu.tw/bitstream/987 ... E%20J6.pdf
http://www.mat.ucsb.edu/~b.sturm/MAT201 ... ndPark.pdf
http://www.tulane.edu/~park/publication ... is2004.pdf
http://www.dafx.ca/proceedings/papers/p_121.pdf
http://www.romyfitz.com/research/thesis.pdf
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~ashley/burg ... linear.pdf

Cheers,

Max