Tag was right!

[dogears]

So, I swapped out the Siemens EL34s in my 183 amp with both my Winged C EL34 and Tung Sol New Sensor EL34.

The Siemens were dull and congested. There was a massive difference between tubes. I recall Tag not liking the Siemens when installed in 183. He also did not care for my 183 when we got together.

I can safely say that now with the Winged C installed (most of my clips of the Phat Momma had them in there) the amp is much less congested on the bottom. When we compared at Tag's, the Phat Momma had a lack of low end clarity. All returned now with the Winged C EL34s.

Lastly, I removed the bright cap on the master. Now, there is much more of the high end compression that the real 183 and Tag's TKT possess. The bright cap adds a lot of clarity to the top, but removes some of the straining/phasing caused by the loop cables. Even Tags amp had dramatically less of that when we removed his cables to the Trex. Much brighter and less of that compression.

Pinner was over while I tweaked. He can corroborate the differences.

In the end, we all like what we like. I just get really ticked when people BS about certain builders being superior or possessing hidden magic. It is all in the tweaking provided the build is solid.

I look forward to my next Tag gathering. Gonna bring the Ojai! Still my fave......

[tubedogsmith]

I'm kinda suprised the output tubes make that much difference with the master volume control almost off.

[greiswig]

(SNIP)The bright cap adds a lot of clarity to the top, but removes some of the straining/phasing caused by the loop cables.

Not meaning to hijack this highly diplomatic thread, but this is an interesting statement to me. I have an FX loop (parallel London Power-style, not serial Dumbleator) that sits in the head cabinet with the amp and an FX unit. So my patch cables to it are very short.

In the past, I've always heard that part of the benefit of the loop was the capacitance losses in the cables. Scott, are you saying there is something more than just capacitance at work in the cables, or am I reading too much into it?

I've wondered about maybe getting some longer cables and figuring out a way to sort of coil them up in the head, but it's already a bit packed in there...

[Structo]

Maybe the cables are affecting the phasing of the AC signal?

Your cab sounds interesting George.
Got a picture?

[pinner]

I concur on Scotty's comments above. There was a dramatic difference when he replaced the Seimens. Surprisingly way better after. The bright cap made a huge difference as well. I know that Scott likes what the bright cap brings to the table (as I do also), but without it was so much more like what I remember the real 183 sounding like. Really smooth and fat!!!

Also after reading the interesting discussion on the strain/phasy thing I began to think the the Mid to High bloom into feedback and that low mid phasy thing were two seperate things. However after messing with Scott's phatmomma I confidently believe they are one in the same but it is hard to hear the lower phasey part with the high bloom present. Perfect example. First the phatmomma with nothing in the loop sounded great. Mid/high bloom into glorious harmonic feedback out the yingyang. Then we hooked up the dumbleator and kept the bright switches down taking alot of the highs out making it a lot duller. Now your could easily hear that low phasey sound all over the place. Very evident. Then we put one of the bright switches up on the dumblator and the glorious highs came back but couldn't hear the low phasey thing as much again. Almost like its an artifact of what is going on hense I believe they are one in the same.

Pinner

[Structo]

Something else I notice is that, once we get used to a tone such as a bright switch on, if we turn that off the tone seems dull, almost dead.
But to a newcomer to the room it may sound fine and have enough treble.

It is probably the ol' psychoacoustics at play.

You get used to the way an amp sounds and if you make a drastic change, even though it may be for the better (judgement/ subjective) you may not like it until you get used to the new tone.

[Mr Dumble]

So, I swapped out the Siemens EL34s in my 183 amp with both my Winged C EL34 and Tung Sol New Sensor EL34.

The Siemens were dull and congested. There was a massive difference between tubes. I recall Tag not liking the Siemens when installed in 183. He also did not care for my 183 when we got together.

I can safely say that now with the Winged C installed (most of my clips of the Phat Momma had them in there) the amp is much less congested on the bottom. When we compared at Tag's, the Phat Momma had a lack of low end clarity. All returned now with the Winged C EL34s.

Lastly, I removed the bright cap on the master. Now, there is much more of the high end compression that the real 183 and Tag's TKT possess. The bright cap adds a lot of clarity to the top, but removes some of the straining/phasing caused by the loop cables. Even Tags amp had dramatically less of that when we removed his cables to the Trex. Much brighter and less of that compression.

Pinner was over while I tweaked. He can corroborate the differences.

In the end, we all like what we like. I just get really ticked when people BS about certain builders being superior or possessing hidden magic. It is all in the tweaking provided the build is solid.

I look forward to my next Tag gathering. Gonna bring the Ojai! Still my fave......

Very cool Scott! Thanks. I HATED the Siemans in my Dumble. Both Shad and I heard it right away, and after trying several different bias settings, went right back to the stock tubes. INSTANT improvement!

As far as builders go, they all have their own sounds for the most part. Bruno makes many different styles of amps for example, but when you play them, you can still tell they all are Brunos. To my ear, Shad really got inside the Dumble tone, and to me, it sounds like a Dumble, not a Quinn. I like TwoRocks because Bill has his own thing down that captures what I like in Dumbles, but they have a lot of TwoRock in them as well. They dont work for you, so what? You like Glaswreks and Bludos, but those amps do not capture what I like in a Dumble. Its all personal taste. I am all excited about my Quinn, and I do not mean to jam it down anyones throat. I am honestly sorry if it seems like that. I LOVE my TwoRock artist as well! You love both your Glaswrks and your Bludos!
My amp is here ready to rumble with all comers!

[dogears]

Yeah, but is this not some ridiculous jazz improv! Watch whole solo....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejzmpcz ... r_embedded

[Mac Daddy]

In regards to both siemens stated by Scott & Tag's Tube's
I now own That Quads that Tag had , I tried having them installed in my TKT
only two were matched and the other two were worlds apart ..unusable

I also had a quad of the same one's Scott had , purchased from the same person , They were test my an expert thru a few high end tube tester machines
One failed and that the tolerance's were a little off
I was told they would drift apart after some burn in and that they were not ones that have better quality's known by siemen
Some I only ended up changing the pre amp tubes with nos Mazda's ( after sampling 30 diff one's ) , Returned the siemens and still have the cheapo power tubes in my TKT

So yes you have to trust your ears & not always the brand name

[Mr Dumble]

I'm kinda suprised the output tubes make that much difference with the master volume control almost off.

Sounds like you do not have much experience with power tubes, or maybe have been playing to loudly to notice differences anymore. Take it from someone who does and can.

[Mac Daddy]

[quote="dogears"]So, I swapped out the Siemens EL34s in my 183 amp with both my Winged C EL34 and Tung Sol New Sensor EL34.



In the end, we all like what we like. I just get really ticked when people BS about certain builders being superior or possessing hidden magic. It is all in the tweaking provided the build is solid.

**************************************

TBA ..Coming soon , The SKT 183 Tweakster

[Structo]

Dumble had the magic and did it right!

Are you ready to RUMBLE!

[mike9]

I have Siemens in my Express clone and have them biased at 65% dissipation and they sound better that at 70%. I have the Gold Lion reissue KT66's in my #40 Dumble clone about the same and they sound killer. You really ought to twiddle with that there bias thingy to find the sweet spot on them tubes -

[ericlee]

Yeah, but is this not some ridiculous jazz improv! Watch whole solo....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aejzmpcz ... r_embedded

Nahhh!
I prefer this impro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiRxLgyN_Lo

[greiswig]

Your cab sounds interesting George.
Got a picture?

Sure, Tom. Hopefully attached here.