RENT A TRAINWRECK

[selloutrr]

found a rental service you can rent TW's Komet's and Dumbles $300 a day $1200 a week. we could easily rent one reverse engineer it and get exact values and tube data.

http://ultrasoundrehearsal.com/sellrent/index.html

[doctord02]

Be advised they will hold a deposit on the value of the amp while you have it. I'm also pretty sure that any evidence of opening the chassis will violate the rental terms and you might not get that deposit back...

Ultrasound is a long time broker for Trainwreck and Komet sales - they are in pretty tight with the Fisher estate and with Hogy at Komet...

[selloutrr]

then lets all chip in buy a TW, reverse engineer it and resell it to recover our investment. this way we can gain the missing knowledge we are speculating about. Actual transformer specs, tube specs and all parts values. Who ever goes in on the TW autopsy recieves the information that is documented. If you don't you don't. Since the information wont be for sale or posted it's not a violation of the estate. just a couple of dudes servicing an amp making sure everything is to spec.

[Structo]

Both the ODS and Express have been pretty well documented here.

I guess I don't understand why you wan to do it all over again.

[Bob-I]

Both the ODS and Express have been pretty well documented here.

I guess I don't understand why you wan to do it all over again.

I agree. The key to these amps isn't the exact values of the components, but the way that Ken Fisher or Alexander Dumble fine tuned them. Little changes in lead dress and component selection can make huge differences in the amp's sound.

Unless we can reverse engineer these guys brains, we're stuck with what we have.

[selloutrr]

but if you get exact values you can better understand how they choose components to voice the amps. make a graph to chart the magic then you can personally make better judgements to voicing your own. It's all math and science.

[Zippy]

Your "math and science" is lacking statistical significance. One sample will not tell you "how they are selecting parts".

The body of knowledge as already assembled here is worth far more than a sample of one amp.

"Trust me, I'm a scientist."

[karczochrulez]

KF not selected parts He builds from this or that or something
The key is how amps working and how parts working together
(sorry my english isnt good)

[jaysg]

I agree that TWs are well enough understood. Since all three models were initially built from OTS iron with good results, the refinements KF made with various vendors are going to be subtle when compared to his past access to really good tubes. You can go with NOS Stancor, NOS Dynaco, Pacific, Toneslut, Triode, or direct Heyboer.

[edit]re:rant below...the guy used components that don't drift a lot. Carbon film and good quality film capacitors are very stable in comparison with carbon comp resistors and those sticky/waxy caps in paper. Did he check for cap polarity...undoubtedly...did he fine tune finished amps...undoubtedly.

[selloutrr]

I'm most interested in the actual curves of the tubes, actual component values / drifts and operating voltages. so I can match for a direct replacement. And why stop at one TW? buy one go threw it sell it and get another and so on. there is enough demand it's not a totally whack investment. you need several to collect data before you can draw any conclusion, past a guess. but you can start to draw similarity in voltage and voicing with only a few. It's great you have a couple pics and some guys willing to give pointers who have serviced or own an original, but there is a way to make this a cut and dry voicing. If you use this value and achive this voltage then this will happen. it is science and math!
otherwise what you are telling me is you worship a man who's secret tone was just luck. I find that very hard to believe! (even if by ear it's still a voltage and curve that is achived by his choice of parts.)
I get it no one really wants to have a correct TW they are all happy with getting an amp with close cosmetics they can brag to there friends at the local bar about, with as little effort and cost as possible. I'm sorry i thought it was about the tone. I was hoping others where looking for a way to take the step to make something amazing and not just another amp. Sorry i wasted your time.

[dave g]

First off, if you read the descriptions of the TWs that they have posted, they have all been retubed NOT by KF, but by the guys at Ultrasound - so trying to discern anything from tube curves is worthless.

Second, how do you propose documenting the operational characteristics of every single component in the amp? You can't measure anything without removing it, and if you come within 10 feet of an original TW with a soldering iron you can kiss any return on your "investment" goodbye.

Third, those Wrecks are selling for 40k. Do you have 40k to blow? I don't. Even if somehow a dozen people here got together and dumped 3k+ a head, who is going to handle the transaction? Would you honestly trust somebody you met on an internet message board with all that money? I don't trust you. Do you trust me? Beyond that, I don't even think there's enough demand for the originals to guarantee a decent resale return. Ultrasound has nearly a dozen TWs for sale - if there actually was any demand, wouldn't they all be gone already?

There is nothing magical about the original Wrecks. There are plenty of people here on this forum who build amps that sound just as good, if not better than the originals. I agree that there is no such thing as magic and in the end everything reduces to natural laws - but the physics of a tube amplifier are too complicated to be deciphered simply by documenting component values. If our understanding was good enough to build amps the way you're proposing (and there's no way we can get there by just measuring values), why bother even using tubes? If you understood the physics that well, you could easily implement a DSP system instead.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I don't think it's a realistic course of action. In the end, the only way to really build a Wreck properly is to use your ears.

[selloutrr]

you are correct that the rental company isnot the amp we'd want. but I do know of several for $10-$13k w/ orig tubes or at least same vintage gt #. as far as trusting tell you what i'll buy it take it to a hotel and whoever wants to show up can by admission. Yes! removing every single part! problem solved.

[doctord02]

So what happens when you re-solder the components back in place and it no longer sounds right when you fire it back up? What then? How does that component data help you?

I think you are chasing ghosts... Both Allyn and Glen, and likely a couple of other guys here built amps that are nuts on exact duplicates of Wrecks that they have had on the bench - in several cases Allyn has built duplicates for original Wreck owners so they could play out with the clone amp and not worry about theft or damage to their priceless original... Glen did the same with his own amp.

Both of these guys have shared what they discovered in the process here in many posts... And they have repeatedly helped others to do the same. Like others in this thread, I dont understand what you think you are gonna uncover... But if you have the money to burn with the economy the way it is, be my guest.

Frankly, if I could get an original Wreck for $10K, the last thing I'd do is disassemble it. Photograph it, sure; double check the circuit against what we have published, you bet... But mostly I'd just play it.

But thats just me.

[Zippy]

Sell',

Let me guess, you haven't built many amps?

[selloutrr]

I've repaired over 500 amps rebuilt several hundred from the chassis up and built from scratch about 50 when time permits. On top of touring the world and mixing/producing some of the top grossing albums of the last ten years I have an amplifier collection that could rival aspen's. Please don't confuse my dedication of making an exact TW when I do sit down and take the time to build with stupidity. I just care about how my builds turn out and value my free time. so I want and expect nothing short of amazing results. I was hoping to share that experience, sorry my offer is something you find a waste of time.