Lets get a tube guide going

[yalesmith]

I finished my first TW and I soon realized that wholly crap, tubes matter more in this amp then any other amp I have used or built in the past. I know that there is a lot of information on this site, but would be almost impossible to put together. So i think people should post thought, ideas and recommendations with dialogue of course. We can have sections on NOS, new production tubes, tubes on the cheap, an area on what tubes KF used or any other person of note....I will gather information and put together....as an example, in my expierence it is easier to find good el34 new production tubes (Winged C) then to find good new production 12ax7....I do like new tungsol tubes, only new production tube that I would consider "good". Let me know what you think

Dave

[Colossal]

I finished my first TW and I soon realized that wholly crap, tubes matter more in this amp then any other amp I have used or built in the past. I know that there is a lot of information on this site, but would be almost impossible to put together. So i think people should post thought, ideas and recommendations with dialogue of course. We can have sections on NOS, new production tubes, tubes on the cheap, an area on what tubes KF used or any other person of note....I will gather information and put together....as an example, in my expierence it is easier to find good el34 new production tubes (Winged C) then to find good new production 12ax7....I do like new tungsol tubes, only new production tube that I would consider "good". Let me know what you think

Dave

Dave,

I totally agree with you on that tubes choices make a difference the Trainwreck circuit, and in every position. I rolled quite a few new production tubes through my test Liverpool. The amp is incredibly transparent, you really hear everything. Pickups make a significant difference too as do volume and tone knob settings.

I did end up leaving in a quartet of Russian 7189s for the power section and love the tone. They are a tad darker than the GT EL84s (grade 6) I had in there but I like the perceived girth. For preamp tubes, I find I like JJ Gold Pin 12AX7s. Mullard 12AX7s were pedestrian at best with little detail, just very average if a bit bland. I tried quite a few others but the JJs ended up staying. I'm building a real Express and Liverpool so will go through it all again. For NOS, I do want to try some Tunsgram and EI 12AX7s.

[ampmike]

You never know where your going to find tubes,I bought about 250 NOS rca"s at a garage sale,Some 12ay"s and x7"s not a lot but a few.Friday my brotherinlaw wanted me to go to a hotrod car parts swap meet.Lots of car stuff and one guy had a big box of tubes "a buck a pc." I got 3 GE 6v6"s. 2 5u4GB's 2 CBS 12ax7"s a 5Y3 gt an RCA 6l6.They all work and are in good condition boxes.Then another booth had a Eico 666 tube tester for forty bucks.So keep your eyes open at any flee market or swap meet,you never know when some guy knew a deceased TV repairman.And in the case of a car meet I dought out of the thousands of people walking through there that day I was the only guy who looked at the tube stuff.Hope I did not get to far off the thread point is NOS tubes are expensive but sometimes you find the right place and get some on the cheap,Mike

[MCK]

Hope I did not get to far off the thread point is NOS tubes are expensive but sometimes you find the right place and get some on the cheap,Mike

I am green with envy! Why do I never find myself in places like this??? Congratulations on your recent finds.

[Aurora]

This could be an interesting topic, but there's quite a lot more to it.
I've been around tubes for the better part of 40 years, but an EF86 was an EF86, and EEC81 likewise - brands were of little interest.
Now there's what seems like huge rainclouds to us newcomers in guitar amps. X-selection lists exists on the net, but to a large extent they are not complete, regarding close-to- but-pin-like substitutes.

Then there's the content in the rain-cloud - "grey-plate", "black-plate", "mesh-something", "winged-C", and so on.......
To some extent I've found out of most of this, but to a newcomer it is probably totally confusing.

So- for starters, reliable X-ref lists, or pointers to them, and then a list of explanations into all these "cult" expressions....

Next up could some basic tech explanations into the quirks of guitar amps, that often rely upon strange variations on tube tech that is usually avoided in e.g. HiFI amps, as they produce distortion in sometimes rather distinct but unusual character, and sometimes directly abuses the tubes to produce the wanted result.

Quite something to chew at... ??

[yalesmith]

My though is that we have an awesome amount of data on this website from layouts, to build guides and cabinet construction but as far as arguably the most important piece to the TW expierence - tubes, we do not have one centralized reference. Just a thought.

Thanks

[MCK]

There are some hints on what KF liked in his amps and what qualities to look for in which position etc but beyond this you are right... Not much to refer to. On the other hand though, the tube matching is such a personal and subjective activity its perhaps very hard to bring it down to a solid science level. Think about it... Depending on your build, lead dress etc you may have more or less hum/hiss etc. Depending on your guitar, pickups, pots you will have different response from your amp. Even the guitar cable you use makes a big difference (refer to Glen K youtube vids). Don't forget the cab & speakers... So in all this sea of variables how do you fix the tubes... Its really like throwing darts at a moving board in a sea of jelly... All you can do is roll them and listen with your ears to see what works for you... Just a humble & newbie perspective.

[yalesmith]

I agree with everything you are saying, but that would be the same comment on all TW components (transformers, caps, etc...). I do think what you wrote is valid, and should be a general disclosure though.

[Cliff Schecht]

In fear of directly influencing the already pricey tube market I think it's probably best we don't get too crazy in characterizing NOS/vintage tubes. That information is readily available anyways.

What would be most productive is to characterize whatever new manufacture tubes are out there and how they work in various Trainwreck circuits. The field of new manufacture vacuum tubes is full of marketing jargon, opinions and people blowing smoke - I'd like to avoid this and keep things more scientific. Perhaps we can characterize some Ei tubes and find a new manufacture part that gets close to this (for the AX7's especially).

[selloutrr]

I finished my first TW and I soon realized that wholly crap, tubes matter more in this amp then any other amp I have used or built in the past. I know that there is a lot of information on this site, but would be almost impossible to put together. So i think people should post thought, ideas and recommendations with dialogue of course. We can have sections on NOS, new production tubes, tubes on the cheap, an area on what tubes KF used or any other person of note....I will gather information and put together....as an example, in my expierence it is easier to find good el34 new production tubes (Winged C) then to find good new production 12ax7....I do like new tungsol tubes, only new production tube that I would consider "good". Let me know what you think

Dave

I understand what you are suggesting however tubes are so subjective it's impossible to do much more then make a list of every brand and make of tube that can run in the circuit. Even tubes from the same batch will sound different. I can tell you what brands were considered OEM trainwreck tubes but even KF was known for extensive tube rolling to voice an amp. A set of tubes that didn't voice one amp voiced another. See how this becomes hard?

[MCK]

I think the most we could do here could be to share methods of tubing/voicing that works. I'm sure every experienced person has developed their approach. If you could share that would be wonderful! Thanks

[selloutrr]

I think the most we could do here could be to share methods of tubing/voicing that works. I'm sure every experienced person has developed their approach. If you could share that would be wonderful! Thanks

will all seriousness.
1: test tubes
2: select the best noise/ life/ personal fav make
3: fire up the amp - warm up
4: play it with a reamped guitar signal - listen for what it is
5: make notes
6: if it is not "it" start rolling tubes
7: make more notes
8: it's like an eye exam this one or this one..
9: take breaks and be aware of volumes ear fatigue can cause mistakes. Keep good notes so you can find your way back if you get lost.
10: know when to say that is "it"

[MCK]

Great start above. What I'm wondering is where you attack the problem. Let me give you my experience as an example. Mind you I'm a novice at this so this is probably a very bad start in a trial & learn game...

1) Build amp
2) Test amp without tubes & fix small issues - no speaker, only load simulator
3) Test amp with tubes that don't matter if fried and fix more issues - no speaker, only load simulator
4) Connect speaker and check for functionality - still crappy tubes
5) Load 2 x matched and known working Siemens EL34 - KFs preferred tubes for this amp. Not much variability there. I had to at least pin one part of the equation down. Bias well.
6) Full volume hiss & hum test
Roll all my AX7s in V1 and see who hisses less
Then go to V3 and see how PI changes affect hiss & hum - roll all you got
Finally roll remaining tubes in V2. My logic there is only 1 triode is running so less impact on tone.
I ended using an 12AT7 in V1 and still on the fence with a lower gain tube for the V3 but not decided yet

7) Microphonic test - After I think I had the best mix of tubes then came the torture test time... I had already weeded out some tubes that did not allow me to go full volume and max all controls but now I needed to push it more. I placed the amp on the floor about 2 feet away from the amp and slowly increased volume while playing. It was obvious that I was not going to get to max volume but my goal was to see which tubes would allow me to go just a little higher.

In the end I think I found my lowest hiss/hum/microphonics set for now. Next step is to play it for a few days with different guitars and see how I like the tone. From here on the changes will be incremental and I will change 1 tube at most and play for a while. Its so easy to loose track of what you tried and what you didn't. Also recording some of these attempts might help for comparison. Perhaps putting on a simple riff on the looper to A/B tubes could also work.

Thats it. All I can think of for now. Am I on the right track?

[selloutrr]

You are on the right track.
I can skip all the noise tests with my amplitrex. Allowing me pick the best tubes to roll before I start. Using a reamped guitar signal helps keep each test exactly the same notes at the same amplitude. The only change to the circuit is truly the tube(s). I also seem to run smaart live with an earthworks m50 calibration microphone so I can visually see what's going on. Multing the M50 into protools if I start to have doubts or second thoughts I can record it make notes and keep going come back and listen later based on the notes I've made while being in the room. Smaart also comes in handy for level matching SPL. Keep in mind what sounds good at bedroom volume might not sound great at concert volume and again at arena level. You have to compromise at some point and stick a fork in it. Having the client on hand for the best 3 tube compliments if often handy. It makes a very personal connection.

[MCK]

I have an amplitrex on hand as well actually but I did not think of using a reamped guitar signal as input for it yet. Still learning how to use it well and I will see if I can figure this out. Thanks for the hints.