Hi all, I am new to this forum, and i am about to begin a TW Xpress build, but I cant find any place to buy 20AWG teflon solid wire in colours, or the 18AWG stranded for the heaters.
I can only seem to find 22AWG solid and 18AWG solid.
Can anyone help me out as to who has the wire recommended for the build.
Regards Peter
Wire
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geetarpicker
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Re: Wire
I think the wire to use is PVC solid core. I hear that the teflon stuff sounds noticably brighter in these amps, which isn't a good thing.
Here's a link to the stuff I used, though this is the manufacture link so you would need to find a dealer. I just searched by the unique part numbers and some sources came up. I like the fact that you can get it in small 25' rolls which is more than enough for two amps.
http://www.nteinc.com/wire/300.html
Here's a link to the stuff I used, though this is the manufacture link so you would need to find a dealer. I just searched by the unique part numbers and some sources came up. I like the fact that you can get it in small 25' rolls which is more than enough for two amps.
http://www.nteinc.com/wire/300.html
Re: Wire
Didn't Ken Fischer use PVC wire in his amps?
I buy almost all my wire (Teflon solid, stranded and shielded) from Apex Jr.
Steve there is very helpful and is a pleasure to deal with.
Not sure if he carries PVC wire but he might.
He does have a $20 minimum purchase but it is easy to buy 10 ft of each color or type.
All his Teflon wire is rated at 600v.
Best pricing and availability around.
Best to call or email for availability and price.
http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html
I buy almost all my wire (Teflon solid, stranded and shielded) from Apex Jr.
Steve there is very helpful and is a pleasure to deal with.
Not sure if he carries PVC wire but he might.
He does have a $20 minimum purchase but it is easy to buy 10 ft of each color or type.
All his Teflon wire is rated at 600v.
Best pricing and availability around.
Best to call or email for availability and price.
http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html
Tom
Don't let that smoke out!
Don't let that smoke out!
Re: Wire
McMaster Carr for me!
http://www.mcmaster.com/#wire-assortments/=5rvb73
You can by individual replacement spools if you don't want to go "all in" for the complete set shown.
Not sure about the physics of 300 V vs 600 V. But....I have used 300V in many builds with no issues. I am careful about running wires with insulation in direct contact with the chassis though. I shoot for 1/16th to 1/8th inch gap there. I assume that the breakdown point of STP air is about 10,000 V/inch
Cheers,
Dave O.
Hmmmm...bad link above. Follow it and put in the following P/N and it will get you there.
9948T17
http://www.mcmaster.com/#wire-assortments/=5rvb73
You can by individual replacement spools if you don't want to go "all in" for the complete set shown.
Not sure about the physics of 300 V vs 600 V. But....I have used 300V in many builds with no issues. I am careful about running wires with insulation in direct contact with the chassis though. I shoot for 1/16th to 1/8th inch gap there. I assume that the breakdown point of STP air is about 10,000 V/inch
Cheers,
Dave O.
Hmmmm...bad link above. Follow it and put in the following P/N and it will get you there.
9948T17
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funkmeblue
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Cliff Schecht
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Re: Wire
I have always used teflon wire since I started building effects however many years ago. My dad worked at Lockheed for a bit and got a bunch of spools of the wire that they use(d) in the F-16's. Great stuff, has never caused me a single problem and I still have tons of the stuff.
About the solid core vs. stranded wire, I can't really see this making an audible difference unless you are using such thick solid core wire that skin effect actually starts to creep up. Glen, what gauge of solid core wire are you using? There are other ways to tame the brightness of the Express, but I know a lot of people aren't too keen on messing around with Ken's designs, at least in their builds where they are trying to mimic Ken's builds exactly. IMO a bit of localized negative feedback goes a LONG way in the Express design, but even with this I always set the corner frequency over 10 kHz just to kill some of the high-end hash and ensure stability in all situations. With the bright switch engaged, the bass cranked and the treble, mids and presence set to taste, my build has sparkly cleans and singing distortion as an Express should
.
About the solid core vs. stranded wire, I can't really see this making an audible difference unless you are using such thick solid core wire that skin effect actually starts to creep up. Glen, what gauge of solid core wire are you using? There are other ways to tame the brightness of the Express, but I know a lot of people aren't too keen on messing around with Ken's designs, at least in their builds where they are trying to mimic Ken's builds exactly. IMO a bit of localized negative feedback goes a LONG way in the Express design, but even with this I always set the corner frequency over 10 kHz just to kill some of the high-end hash and ensure stability in all situations. With the bright switch engaged, the bass cranked and the treble, mids and presence set to taste, my build has sparkly cleans and singing distortion as an Express should
.Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.
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geetarpicker
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Re: Wire
The signal wire in my original amp sure appears to be 300v wire though it doesn't have any markings. I used the WHS series solid core PVC from NTE for my two clones. It sure "looks" correct, but I'm now questioning it a tad.
I read the interview with Ken Fischer where he claims his preference is non-irradiated over irradiated PVC, as in the stuff that's a little less melt resistant. Apparently he prefered the tone of it, and worked quickly with the soldering iron to compensate for it's less user friendly nature. In the same article he mentions a definate issue with bright and harsh amps when specifically made with teflon wire, and says you really have to tweak the circuit to compenstate for the difference in tone the teflon makes. This is what Ken mentions, and I don't question it at least in the amps he designed or built. As much as folks can claim these differences are not audible, IMHO there is still a little further to go with building these amps truly to Ken's spec and tonal outcome.
That said I just put an email out to NTE about the wire I used in my two very close spec clones. My clones sound great, but I still question that last little bit of extra zing and harshness on top and a little more highs overall. It's a slight difference, but it still makes me wonder what the last piece to the puzzle is to really NAIL IT 100%. I still don't think it's just an age thing in the components between my old amp and clones, now that I have a couple years on the clones. IF I find out the NTE WHS wire IS irradiated I'll be then sourcing some non-irradiated PVC wire to swap it all out for. That will be a pain in the butt. However I'm down to the only differences (between my original and clone) is most likely either the wire and pots. Using Pacifics, Mallory caps, NOS tube sockets, BUD chassis, Cherry box, flea clips boards, ala a very close clone even down to some minute details that many don't bother with.
Here is the interview with Ken posted on the web, that I think first appeared in an amp book that I have a copy of here somewhere.
http://www.ax84.com/bbs/index.php?id=360118
I read the interview with Ken Fischer where he claims his preference is non-irradiated over irradiated PVC, as in the stuff that's a little less melt resistant. Apparently he prefered the tone of it, and worked quickly with the soldering iron to compensate for it's less user friendly nature. In the same article he mentions a definate issue with bright and harsh amps when specifically made with teflon wire, and says you really have to tweak the circuit to compenstate for the difference in tone the teflon makes. This is what Ken mentions, and I don't question it at least in the amps he designed or built. As much as folks can claim these differences are not audible, IMHO there is still a little further to go with building these amps truly to Ken's spec and tonal outcome.
That said I just put an email out to NTE about the wire I used in my two very close spec clones. My clones sound great, but I still question that last little bit of extra zing and harshness on top and a little more highs overall. It's a slight difference, but it still makes me wonder what the last piece to the puzzle is to really NAIL IT 100%. I still don't think it's just an age thing in the components between my old amp and clones, now that I have a couple years on the clones. IF I find out the NTE WHS wire IS irradiated I'll be then sourcing some non-irradiated PVC wire to swap it all out for. That will be a pain in the butt. However I'm down to the only differences (between my original and clone) is most likely either the wire and pots. Using Pacifics, Mallory caps, NOS tube sockets, BUD chassis, Cherry box, flea clips boards, ala a very close clone even down to some minute details that many don't bother with.
Here is the interview with Ken posted on the web, that I think first appeared in an amp book that I have a copy of here somewhere.
http://www.ax84.com/bbs/index.php?id=360118
Re: Wire
Here are the part numbers for various colors of 600V PVC 20 AWG solid core:
Black 7964K651
White 7964K654
Green 7964K664
Green with white stripe 7964K833
Red 7964K657
Blue 7964K667
Brown 7964K813
Gray 7964K823
Orange 7964K73
Purple 7964K817
Yellow 7964K661
I use nothing but the black wire and the tonal difference between this and teflon is significant. I don't know if has been irradiated or not though. I'll look it up on the mfg website.
Black 7964K651
White 7964K654
Green 7964K664
Green with white stripe 7964K833
Red 7964K657
Blue 7964K667
Brown 7964K813
Gray 7964K823
Orange 7964K73
Purple 7964K817
Yellow 7964K661
I use nothing but the black wire and the tonal difference between this and teflon is significant. I don't know if has been irradiated or not though. I'll look it up on the mfg website.
Eardrums!!! We don't need no stinkin' eardrums!
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geetarpicker
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Re: Wire
Looking at that wire the specs show .098 OD, which is about 40% thicker insulation than the wire in my original. In the original it really appears to be closer to .065 OD which seems to me more inline with 300v 20 guage vs 600v 20 guage. I may pull out my original amp tonight and see if I can find any ID markings on the wire at also double check the OD and core guage with a digital caliper.
I just checked the spec of that wire on McMaster Carr and the description reads: "Harsh Environment—Has irradiated insulation, resulting in better resistance to chemicals, abrasion, and cuts." If we can take the interview with Ken to heart, where he said he prefered the Non-irradiated PVC wire I guess we can assume that's what he used in Wrecks?
Fiddly details, but I really think the exact wire detail may be one thing that leads the amp to being brighter vs darker all other things equal. IMHO just about no other amp design is as responsive to the specs of the components, tubes, layout, and lead dress as these amps.
Yep I know Ken even said different wire colors made a difference, and we can argue that all day. The NTE wire I used wasn't white wire dyed from what I can tell, it's color goes all the way through. I'll stay away from the wire color debate... Still it's a bit more accepted that the insulation material does effect the tone. If I find out from NTE that the wire I used on my pair of clones is irradiated it might be interesting to rewire one of my amps. I built the pair of them to identical specs, so if I do change the wire on one I'll compare it to the other at that point to see.
My search on Google has yet to even find any PVC 20 guage wire (300 or 600v) that specifically states that it is non-irradiated.
Details...
I just checked the spec of that wire on McMaster Carr and the description reads: "Harsh Environment—Has irradiated insulation, resulting in better resistance to chemicals, abrasion, and cuts." If we can take the interview with Ken to heart, where he said he prefered the Non-irradiated PVC wire I guess we can assume that's what he used in Wrecks?
Fiddly details, but I really think the exact wire detail may be one thing that leads the amp to being brighter vs darker all other things equal. IMHO just about no other amp design is as responsive to the specs of the components, tubes, layout, and lead dress as these amps.
Yep I know Ken even said different wire colors made a difference, and we can argue that all day. The NTE wire I used wasn't white wire dyed from what I can tell, it's color goes all the way through. I'll stay away from the wire color debate... Still it's a bit more accepted that the insulation material does effect the tone. If I find out from NTE that the wire I used on my pair of clones is irradiated it might be interesting to rewire one of my amps. I built the pair of them to identical specs, so if I do change the wire on one I'll compare it to the other at that point to see.
My search on Google has yet to even find any PVC 20 guage wire (300 or 600v) that specifically states that it is non-irradiated.
Details...
Re: Wire
It certainly would be an interesting experiment. The wire I am using was a vast improvement in many ways over other PVC wire I have used (mostly 300V 22ga) and Teflon. I gave up on Teflon because it sucks to work with. I also gave up stranded for it's properties. I think the larger gauge and solid core nature of the wire is the first leap and maybe the non-irradiation? Hard to say on the later since I haven't tried it.
I have chassis and Pacific transformers for a test mule. Let me know if you are interested Glen.
I have chassis and Pacific transformers for a test mule. Let me know if you are interested Glen.
Eardrums!!! We don't need no stinkin' eardrums!
Re: Wire
If you guys see the pics of the "undocumented express" and Franchesca you can see that there's diferent colors of wire used.
Glen does the "Orphan Annie" wire colors match with Franchesca or the undocumented express?
Glen does the "Orphan Annie" wire colors match with Franchesca or the undocumented express?
Re: Wire
Stickin' my neck out on this one , I know - just can't help it 
Coming from where I do ( engineering background), I find this debate about the tonal issues of solid vs stranded, PVC and others vs teflon etc, quite out of hand, - not to mention the colour of the insulation.....!
What actually might be an issue, given the higher impedances of tube circuits vs SS, is that various thicknesses and types of insulation may give reason to small variations in capacitance, which in turn may result in minor changes of tonal response. Science has long since proved that humans can detect very small variations in level and tonal response.
In all other aspects of electronics, solid core wire is usually to be avoided, in cases of vibration and exposure to mechanical shock, be it a few big bangs or several minor ones.
The voltage rating of tube amp wiring should not be neglected, depending of course where in the circuit it's used, and how it is routed...
Oh- BTW - skin effect at audio frequencies is truly just another of the urban myths circulating in guitar and "Hi End Audio" circles! Even if I may agree that physics and theories may not yet have explained all there is , - in this case it has!
Coming from where I do ( engineering background), I find this debate about the tonal issues of solid vs stranded, PVC and others vs teflon etc, quite out of hand, - not to mention the colour of the insulation.....!
What actually might be an issue, given the higher impedances of tube circuits vs SS, is that various thicknesses and types of insulation may give reason to small variations in capacitance, which in turn may result in minor changes of tonal response. Science has long since proved that humans can detect very small variations in level and tonal response.
In all other aspects of electronics, solid core wire is usually to be avoided, in cases of vibration and exposure to mechanical shock, be it a few big bangs or several minor ones.
The voltage rating of tube amp wiring should not be neglected, depending of course where in the circuit it's used, and how it is routed...
Oh- BTW - skin effect at audio frequencies is truly just another of the urban myths circulating in guitar and "Hi End Audio" circles! Even if I may agree that physics and theories may not yet have explained all there is , - in this case it has!
Re: Wire
All I know is that I prefer the PVC in a thick varient over the Teflon and I use stranded because I thought it was determined we should not be using solid core. Now I hear we use solid core? Oh well easier to work with if you ask me. Anyone asking yet? 