Wire

[dartanion]

Believe, not hear. All reliable listening tests - ie. double blind or similar - demonstrate that there are strictly *no* subjective differences between properly designed, built, chosen and used components. And if there's a perceptible difference, basic science explains why and how.

Then explain it to us oh yea of infinite scientific wisdom!

We are all ears

[FYL]

Then explain it to us oh yea of infinite scientific wisdom!

The mo' you believe in mojo, the mo' mojo is mo' effective.

[dartanion]

Then explain it to us oh yea of infinite scientific wisdom!

The mo' you believe in mojo, the mo' mojo is mo' effective.

I don't believe in mojo.

Seriously dude! You come around a site that is dedicated to building and tweaking tube amps and start telling us that component choice makes no difference, and you expect us to worship your opines! Get real.

Yes, there is a lot of pseudo-science in the audio realms, but mostly resident in the HiFi world. If you believe you are so intellectually superior than the group of folks here, then there is more wrong with you than just Amusia.

[Cliff Schecht]

Even different shapes of the same style of capacitor will sound different. a small 50/100V .022uF mylar film cap will sound noticeably different than a 600V mylar cap, at least in my tests. The fact that the plates of the capacitors are much different in geometry does have a subtle, yet audible effect on the sound.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to claim that nobody here can hear the difference between different parts in a "blind A/B test". Perhaps FYL can't tell the difference but some of us have spent thousands of hours subjectively comparing different technologies to find what suits a circuit best. I doubt manufacturers would waste their time selling different styles of the same capacitor compositions if they couldn't themselves tell the difference and quantify this difference. Look at the range of electrolytics made by Nichicon, they range from penny parts to a few dollars per capacitor because one is made for decoupling in cheapo electronics equipment, the other is made to pass audio with minimal distortion/coloration. One could do the others job and both are close, if not exactly the same in materials but each has their own specific purpose.

[FYL]

You come around a site that is dedicated to building and tweaking tube amps and start telling us that component choice makes no difference, and you expect us to worship your opines!

Try to read and understand what I write before entering rant mode. Where did I write that "component choice makes no difference"?

[redshark]

HAHA!! as you guys discuss the diference in components I was auditioning preamp tubes for my Express build.
I was running: on V1,V2 ecc83 mullard and V3 a new and balanced sovtek 12ax7wa

I got on ebay some NOS that were supposed to be Kenny's fav tubes for the express, ecc83 dumont labeled tungsram, a tungsram ecc83 and EI ecc83.

I started switching those last 3 tubes in diferent positions and playing for like 5 minutes, checking how bright, how noisy(hiss level or microphonics) and how gainy the setups were. I'm amazed to hear how radical the tone variations were.

At the end the combination that sounded the best to me was
V1 mullard ecc83
V2 tungsram ecc83
V3 ei ecc83

I will leave it at this, seems to me that adding the other dumont-tungsram made the thing brighter either on V1 or V2 and also the EI was not that great in V1
The old mullard ecc83 made the sound warmer. Also noticed that once the new sovtek was out of the line up and it got down to all old production tubes it was a little bit more complex.

Am I allucinating? I don't think so...

YES,YES, components make a BIG diference!!!!

[UR12]

At the end the combination that sounded the best to me was
V1 mullard ecc83
V2 tungsram ecc83
V3 ei ecc83

Interesting. I have 4 NOS Mullards 12AX7s and they are the hissiest, hummiest, most microphonic tubes I have ever tried to put in the V1 position of a Liverpool or Express. Sound like pure crap. You must have been living right or something. Or maybe it is the type of rubber the feet I am using

[FYL]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to claim that nobody here can hear the difference between different parts in a "blind A/B test".

I didn't write anything even remotely close to this. I wrote for instance: All reliable listening tests - ie. double blind or similar - demonstrate that there are strictly *no* subjective differences between properly designed, built, chosen and used components. And if there's a perceptible difference, basic science explains why and how.

I doubt manufacturers would waste their time selling different styles of the same capacitor compositions if they couldn't themselves tell the difference and quantify this difference.

This is usually good old segmented marketing at work. Nearly identical products at different price levels is one of the most effective ways to maximize margins and profits.

And when it's not, you've got different products for different applications.

[ckpop]

If you don't believe wire, caps, resistors sound different that is fine. It's not from scientific data. Even with Ken fishers extreme knowledge I am sure the gift of selective hearing play just as much a major role in tuning his amps. There were probably things that went against his technical knowledge he couldn't explain but could hear a change.

IF You really want to know about people who have the gift of selective hearing watch TOM DOWD & The Language of music.

When I build and use different components in a sense I am mixing sound and thats how I approch my build, not just if I can prove it with data. It's sound and music that is important.

[ckpop]

I think FYL should have a talk with Rupert Neve and explain his data and opinion on this subject. !!!!!!!!!

[dartanion]

You come around a site that is dedicated to building and tweaking tube amps and start telling us that component choice makes no difference, and you expect us to worship your opines!

Try to read and understand what I write before entering rant mode. Where did I write that "component choice makes no difference"?

Go back and read what you wrote.

there are strictly *no* subjective differences between properly designed, built, chosen and used components

Are you backpedaling now? If anyone is ranting, it's you my friend.

the burnden of proof is on your shoulders...

Not so. You are trying to convince us of your personal opinions, so prove to us that you are right.

As well, subjective testing is not scientific. Objective testing is.

[Richie]

didn't write anything even remotely close to this. I wrote for instance

i think it got derailed abut here.

It'll sound the same in all proper double blind tests! Ditto for caps and most other components

Now "most" might be the key word.

as for tubes, the old EI, and i like the bugle boy tubes. and tried a few mullard which i found a nice M8137. Seems no matter tungsram to sylvainia to whatever,you just have to weed through any of them.

I like to find a good tube for v2, then work on finding one for v1.
many times its a combination of these 2 spots
If you have a noisey or microphonic tube in V2, you'll have a much harder time trying to get a tube to work in V1.
If you put a good tube in V2, you could try the tubes you tried before, and find many more may work now in v1.

[marcoloco961]

With all this said, I have built many amps that are identical in components with my own 2 hands. Identical in layout, and all components measured with specification (no greater than 5% tolerance). Do they all sound identical? Absolutely not. Very similar, but I can hear differences between every one of them. Is it the small variations in component values? Is it small variations in layout (a few mm here, a few mm there)? The variables are too great to pin it down and make it a science.

Interesting conversation. Good points made on both sides of the discussion. What comes to mind after reading this comment by Dartanion is that, yes, two amps built with the same listed value parts, and the same brand name of parts, still end up sounding different. True values will vary, and when you add several components in the cicuit that are off by just a little, it might end up being a large difference overall.

This is where I believe Ken had the mojo that everyone is looking for in these amps. In what you refer to as "voicing" the amp. After it was all put together as a good starting point, he would change little things to bring the tone to exactly what "he" wanted to hear.

I know not everyone here starts, and, or, stays, with the exact schematic used by Ken and posted here. I just love how most ppl with a new build just love it and are not going to change anything. Then 2 days later they are back looking a VVR's and "boost mods". It is so addicting.

Hell, it seems each original Trainwreck I have seen documented has subtle differences. All part of the "voicing". And that is subject to each different persons taste.

I used the teflon wire. My amps were too bright to begin with. So I changed a few things to get them to where I was happy with the tone. I think this is a must no matter what components you use. It seems each different guitar or speaker cabinet used completely changes the overall tone of the amp. Just so many variables. Out of curiosity, I am going to try some copper wire coated with PVC for the next build to be able to see if I agree that it makes a difference in sound. Should be interesting.

[FYL]

Go back and read what you wrote.

Partial quoting won't help you... Please take full sentences and full paragraphs : the context is very important.

As well, subjective testing is not scientific.

More than a hundred years of psychoacoustics, dozens of internationnally accepted subjective testing methodologies demonstrate the contrary. But who am I to argue, huh?

[FYL]

I think FYL should have a talk with Rupert Neve and explain his data and opinion on this subject. !!!!!!!!!

Good old Rupert, in his eighties and still kicking. One of the true greats.