Essential components to recreate the EXPRESS sound....

[selloutrr]

My opinions have to some degree changed. After getting to know JM he is a very nice guy he doesn't claim to know everything however he has been very receptive toward turning my NOS parts into official TW circuit amplifiers. Which from an investment stand point that is a no brainer. Since a clone isn't worth the sum of its parts and a licensed TW is worth $5,000 - $56,000.00. As for if JM can build a KF amp? Idk I bought a '91 express so I after JM builds my other 4-5 amps ill be happy to compare. What JM does have going for him is access to the notes ken had left. As well as the ability to meter, measure, and work from KF build amps burning his builds. As for my thoughts on the new builds versus Ken's I do feel a bit jaded at how it all came about but it is what it is and it's here to stay until parts or interest are lost.

The switch adding to the tone. Anything with metal adds to the total impedance of the chassis. Though not much it all still matters... But as pointed out you can meter and build and unsolder and rebuild and have a different amp. This proves the impedance is very important. However it's a mute point since the correct switches are no longer available.

I think a good portion of my change in attitude is that the forum has gone stale and the questions are all the same, just a new screen name. Lots of lazy questions that the search engine would answer.

[redshark]

Thanks a lot Mark!!
I can't wait either for Mark's book. I'm a Ken Fischer fan and I hope he documents the amps and we can all learn from the experience.
Actually I do care about my amps getting the real trainwreck feel. After all, what are we trying to copy?
I had played 2 real ones Glen's express and Christine a Liverpool he had @ the 09 Nashville amp show and I listened and just strummed a couple chords on Amanda the second rocket that belongs to Derek.
That rocket was the reason I decided to build this amps. I wouldn't call them clones but "inspired on" amplifiers because my amps don't have the "original" component 100%.
Still I don't want this to be my best amps. I'm actually developing an amp that will be inspired in the 3 wrecks, all @ once!! touch sensitive and warm as the rocket but with the edge of the pool and express but without being too out of control, some mutant of the 3!! if I like the result I will call it the Frankenwreck!!

[redshark]

[quote="selloutrr"]


The switch adding to the tone. Anything with metal adds to the total impedance of the chassis. Though not much it all still matters... But as pointed out you can meter and build and unsolder and rebuild and have a different amp. This proves the impedance is very important. However it's a mute point since the correct switches are no longer available.

[quote]

Makes sense, ground currents flow from the circuit to the chassis and every piece of metal in contact with the chassis will be part of the chassis resistance to current. Not so sure how the ear will pick that up but I don't actually sweat those little issues. I think the windings of transformers (not all were the same) could be more easily heard and so the tubes and caps. Anyway thanks for pointing that out Mark!!

[vibratoking]

...But as pointed out you can meter and build and unsolder and rebuild and have a different amp. This proves the impedance is very important.

OK. I agree that you can disassemble/reassemble an amp and it may not sound the same. You can also disassemble/reassemble your amp so that it sounds exactly the same. Especially if you know what you are doing. There are amp builders successfully building good sounding repeatable amps with 20% components. Just cause Fender and Marshall didn't do it 100% if the time doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means they failed or didn't try for that level of consistency. I agree that you can always hand tune and tweak the sound more to your liking, but it may not be more to the liking of another.

I would also add that you could disassemble/reassemble your car, or anything else for that matter, and it may not work the same or at all. It depends on your skill and knowledge.

Let's not confuse anyone into thinking that there is some uncontrollable magic involved in building a guitar amplifier. It is all completely repeatable if you have the right skills and knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that IMO. Sorry, but if you disassemble/reassemble an amp and it sounds different, your skill set and understanding isn't up to the task at hand.

BTW, none of this proves that the resistance of a properly functioning and spec'd switch is important to the sound of any circuit.

I am respectfully trying to stop the proliferation of all this magic nonsense. You just need the proper understanding. The earth used to be flat, remember? Societies sacrificed humans to increase crop growth, until they began to understand the value of sun, water and feritile soil.

[Blackburn]

Completely agree, VK.

A couple of my professionally trained tech friends who work on this kind of stuff for a living would be rolling on the floor laughing their asses off at the mere question of the tonal effect of an on/off switch. And it should be known already that after a certain point Ken was really just bullshitting people due to the fact that no one was listening and remained ignorant to listening with their own ears. That thing about the color of a wire's jacket should have tipped everyone off. I'm not bashing Ken, love the guy, he simply decided at a point that if no one would listen, he'd have a little fun, and I think it's all really hilarious. Much more magic in proper tubing, biasing, good speakers, transformers, lead dress and proper TONE PASSING components. This stuff really isn't that difficult, but really nice parts can be pretty expensive nowadays.

[redshark]

Expensive??? I paid 23.82 per Mallory TC75 cap!! 71.46 in 3 20uF caps!! That I think is insane!!
but I still think those parts are somewhat important. I wouldn't put 3dll chinese caps in there for sure. But switches, although what selloutrr said about all attached to the chassis can change the impedance I still don't think that I could hear the diference so.... I rather spend the $$ in caps, tubes and transformers!!!

[martin manning]

...Let's not confuse anyone into thinking that there is some uncontrollable magic involved in building a guitar amplifier. It is all completely repeatable if you have the right skills and knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that IMO. Sorry, but if you disassemble/reassemble an amp and it sounds different, your skill set and understanding isn't up to the task at hand.

BTW, none of this proves that the resistance of a properly functioning and spec'd switch is important to the sound of any circuit.

I am respectfully trying to stop the proliferation of all this magic nonsense. You just need the proper understanding. The earth used to be flat, remember? Societies sacrificed humans to increase crop growth, until they began to understand the value of sun, water and feritile soil.

I'll paraphrase myself from another recent thread: If you are selling amps, or if you own a vintage amp that has substantial value, or anything else that is based on old technology and easily copied, it is very much in your own interest to create and maintain the illusion that the whole is much more than the sum of it's parts due to some secret, supernatural, or simply unknown reason.

[Blackburn]

...Let's not confuse anyone into thinking that there is some uncontrollable magic involved in building a guitar amplifier. It is all completely repeatable if you have the right skills and knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that IMO. Sorry, but if you disassemble/reassemble an amp and it sounds different, your skill set and understanding isn't up to the task at hand.

BTW, none of this proves that the resistance of a properly functioning and spec'd switch is important to the sound of any circuit.

I am respectfully trying to stop the proliferation of all this magic nonsense. You just need the proper understanding. The earth used to be flat, remember? Societies sacrificed humans to increase crop growth, until they began to understand the value of sun, water and feritile soil.

I'll paraphrase myself from another recent thread: If you are selling amps, or if you own a vintage amp that has substantial value, or anything else that is based on old technology and easily copied, it is very much in your own interest to create and maintain the illusion that the whole is much more than the sum of it's parts due to some secret, supernatural, or simply unknown reason.

Agreed! I'd probably be doing the same if I was a Wreck owner.

Maybe one day...

[selloutrr]

...But as pointed out you can meter and build and unsolder and rebuild and have a different amp. This proves the impedance is very important.

OK. I agree that you can disassemble/reassemble an amp and it may not sound the same. You can also disassemble/reassemble your amp so that it sounds exactly the same. Especially if you know what you are doing. There are amp builders successfully building good sounding repeatable amps with 20% components. Just cause Fender and Marshall didn't do it 100% if the time doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means they failed or didn't try for that level of consistency. I agree that you can always hand tune and tweak the sound more to your liking, but it may not be more to the liking of another.

I would also add that you could disassemble/reassemble your car, or anything else for that matter, and it may not work the same or at all. It depends on your skill and knowledge.

Let's not confuse anyone into thinking that there is some uncontrollable magic involved in building a guitar amplifier. It is all completely repeatable if you have the right skills and knowledge. Absolutely no doubt about that IMO. Sorry, but if you disassemble/reassemble an amp and it sounds different, your skill set and understanding isn't up to the task at hand.

BTW, none of this proves that the resistance of a properly functioning and spec'd switch is important to the sound of any circuit.

I am respectfully trying to stop the proliferation of all this magic nonsense. You just need the proper understanding. The earth used to be flat, remember? Societies sacrificed humans to increase crop growth, until they began to understand the value of sun, water and feritile soil.

.


I pointed out years ago you could meter and scope and document an amp and reproduce it and caught so much bullshit and slack for it. It's not impossible or even hard if you are detail oriented.

Speaking of rebuilding cars I'm seriously considering quiting music and amps and starting a restoration shop for C303
The interest is lost in music I can do it without thinking and amps outside of rental have no value, certainly no money in amp repair and 85% of the amps maybe more are just knock offs of another amp. It's pretty sad...

Nothing matters if you want to pass sound. It all matters if you want that tone. It's in the details like anything.

[Blackburn]

Mark, I think you're a cool dude, but what it really comes down to is whether or not an amp sounds 'great'. I really hope the TW name has not become synonymous with Dumble now, in that whenever someone mentions 'THE TONE' it has to be a Wreck. No one's denying that Wrecks sound amazing with the proper setup, but so many people everyday that DON'T play them sound amazing anyway. Much more about the player. It's not about getting Wreck tone, or even Dumble tone, it's about getting a GREAT tone. That's what I've always strived for when building an amp and still do. If you're tired of the same old copies and designs then build YOUR own amp. Plenty of room left for new or simply 'different' designs.

[selloutrr]

Honestly I'm not a Wreck kind of player to me the tone is dated and best serves blues and lite rock. Same with dumble. I own them only because of studio and rental value. If it wasn't a placebo I wouldn't bother. IMHO they aren't the be all end all of tone.. Don't get me wrong they are nice sounding amps but you can get pretty close to the same tone in the studio with Vox AC30 top boost and drive pedal or a modded Marshall Especially after processing and the rest of the band and backing tracks.
The TW are absolutely a players amp it interacts very much and is not at all forgiving for sloppy playing... Which again can be both a blessing and a total ego butt fuck.. As for TW falling into the Dumble lump.. Yes they have the moment they went for a ton of $$$ that boat set sale. Now all it is... Those who own then want to keep the value strong and those who don't own them want them for cheap. Keep in mind when ken built them they were only ok quality parts and an amp cost about $412 in parts give or take. And 16-22hrs in labor to build from scratch. They weren't built to be what they have become. People just got carried away and the "magic" ... Fueled the fire for collectors and deep pocket musicians... And we have what we have today. Tons of clones, lies and myth.. Folklore and the rebirth of a company trying to profit on a name because they have a market. $7k reissue amps for the guy how can't buy a $35k+ amp. I will say I feel bad for JM his builds are probably solid but the fab wagon of people buying them don't have the skill to play them so the video we do get to see is shotty at best.

[Reeltarded]

If it wasn't a placebo I wouldn't bother. .

Amen.

About the stripping and rebuilding; I didn't mean to imply magic, I meant to imply the builder has as much to do with it as a pile of stripped parts. I have swapped coupler positions with actual results from doing so. No magic.

Tolerance probably. They are mostly 20% in my things.

[M Fowler]

I agree building amps is not worth it and the guys I run into don't know tone.

I must be getting old and grumpy because I meet so many frigging idiots around town.

[martin manning]

I agree building amps is not worth it and the guys I run into don't know tone.

It can be profitable if your brand has enough cachet to get price. This is pretty much the strategy followed by e.g. Mercury Magnetics. Buyers are paying for the name, not necessarily for the tone.

[Blackburn]

I agree building amps is not worth it and the guys I run into don't know tone.

It can be profitable if your brand has enough cachet to get price. This is pretty much the strategy followed by e.g. Mercury Magnetics. Buyers are paying for the name, not necessarily for the tone.

I've been starting to feel that way about them too. There's just something about their trannies that doesn't sound right to me. And I feel they can be bright. I've been on the hunt for vintage iron now for a few weeks and am amazed what I'm finding.