Wire

[M Fowler]

Thats why I like this forum we get along well enough to get our differences out there and talk about it for four pages. Well now I just made it 5 pages

[ckpop]

I guess if we discussed this stuff in congress we would be in gridlock also LOL. Sorry but I'm a amp left winger

[FYL]

At the same time I find it hard to believe you can make such a general statement on how components are equal.

General? Equal? I've never written anything even remotely close.

If you can document proper subjective tests establishing that there's a perceptible difference between, say, broadly similar film caps or wires, I'll be glad to review your material. Til then I'll stick to what has been scientifically established.

[FYL]

Not that it's a theory based upon scientific means, but it's interesting that in many amplifiers component choices have much less effect to the end result than in other amplifiers.

Agreed: some amps surimpose a dominant sonic signature on the DUT and aren't to be used as testing platforms.

Tubes and other active devices can subjectively be dominated in one amp and dominate in another. Or, in the same amp, from position to position as everybody knows - a slightly microphonic tube sounding OK in the PI is awful as V1.

OTOH you may always get down to the basics : for instance DUT + minimal glue vs. straight wire for passives.

In that mind set it doesn't seem outrageous to me that tonal differences even in wire might be possibly more audible in a wreck compared to other circuits.

Just take 7-stranded so-called solid wire in 22ga, one plain copper with PVC isolation, the other using silver over copper with PTFE. Connect them to a proper testing jig, then do a double blind tests: you won't be able to tell them apart.

Despite what a lot of people believe, wire has strictly no sound of it's own when properly used.

Same might go for lead dress, layout, transformers, etc...

Sure. A marginally stable amp such as a 'Wreck is *very* sensitive to such changes. Had an Express clone once which sounded really nice when fitted with a bottom plate and lodged in her cab but went badly oscillating and sounded like crap when placed on the bench in chassis form...

[FYL]

Another thing to remember is in a blind AB test you are not taking into consideration the playing tecnique of the guitar player.

If you did you'd be comparing different playing styles and techniques!

[FYL]

Maybe he will explain why he don't believe caps can sound different.

Never written anything like that. Quoting myself:

"But if you get back to one of the subjects in this thread and take two nearly identical wires (same gauge, number of strands, overall construction, etc.), one using plain copper and PVC the other silvered copper with PTFE, the latter won't sound brighter. It'll sound the same in all proper double blind tests! Ditto for caps and most other components."

Now rephrasing:

If you take two nearly identical cap (same ratings, same technology, overall construction, etc.), one being generic and the other audiophile-approved, the latter won't sound better. It'll sound the same in all proper double blind tests!

Just take, say, a Mallory 150 and a Sozo and do a proper double blind test: you won't be able to find a difference because they sound exactly the same.

But, if you use, say, ceramic caps, electrolytics and other types of caps, there could - and should - be a very real subjective difference!

[geetarpicker]

I seem to recall Ken F. saying this quite often.

Whatever...

[Jackie Treehorn]

At the same time I find it hard to believe you can make such a general statement on how components are equal.

General? Equal? I've never written anything even remotely close.

If you can document proper subjective tests establishing that there's a perceptible difference between, say, broadly similar film caps or wires, I'll be glad to review your material. Til then I'll stick to what has been scientifically established.

Here's one I read a couple weeks ago on speaker cables. http://www.audiodesignline.com/showArti ... =201807390

Pretty interesting. The whole series is a good read, actually.

On the subject of hookup wire, I don't think Teflon leads to "brightness" it's the silver plating on the wire. Pure copper with Teflon sounds great, to me.

[FYL]

Here's one I read a couple weeks ago on speaker cables.

From "Loudspeakers For music recording and reproduction", Philip Newell and Keith Holland, Focal Press, 2006, ISBN: 978-0-240-52014-8

Anecdotal at best.

On the subject of hookup wire, I don't think Teflon leads to "brightness" it's the silver plating on the wire. Pure copper with Teflon sounds great, to me.

How could silver plating have a "sound" ?

BTW, PTFE can't easily be extruded atop copper. Every consumer grade PTFE-coated cable uses plated copper.

[ckpop]

Are you looking at a single part for the AB test or location or are you taking in to consideration the sum result of all the parts in combination.

To me it is how each part reacts with each other for the end result. do all your caps have leads that are copper or steel then take that effect of adding 7 caps in a circuit. It seems like like you are focused on one part not the total result. The same with wire, one small wire no difference but add the lenght of the wire for the whole amp you get a different overall result.

[Structo]

Far from scientific but I have a little 6V6 amp that I initially installed PS6 polyester orange drops for the signal caps.

The amp sounded good but later I wanted to experiment so I removed all the orange drops and installed Mallory 150 caps, which are also polyester.

To my ears, I couldn't really hear a difference.
But to be fair, I hadn't played the amp with the orange drops right before I swapped them out.
So the tone with the OD caps was not fresh in my head.

I do believe some guys and gals are gifted with very good hearing as well as training their ears to be able to discreetly listen to sounds and hear small differences. Like selective hearing skills.

But they also have to have the ability to put what they hear into words that can be easily understood.

Not sure about anybody else, but I get tired of hearing the same flowery descriptors regarding an amps sound or tone.
Like chimey, bell like, glassy, silky smooth, crystal clear highs, fragile, etc.

But we also have to choose words that can be understood by other guitarists. So those words I listed are used.

Hearing can vary widely from person to person.

My wife for example, can't hear certain things that I can. My ears have been abused by 35 years in construction and more than that by guitar amplifiers and music in general.
But after a lot of years as a violin player early on and acoustic guitar after that and eventually many years on electric guitar, I have what I would call a trained ear. Like many here I am able to pick apart different aspects of music. The ability to segregate instruments to listen to one part in a band or how the tone of the guitar is relative to the other instruments.
These all play a role in how we listen to things.

But I'll say to her, did you hear that? She will say no.
I think she has some hearing loss as well.

Looking back at this thread I think I may have started this brew ha ha by saying that Ken claimed he could hear the difference in the dye used in PVC wiring.
Maybe he could. But most wouldn't be able to so it is rather a moot point in what color wire you use in your amp.
It would be difficult to do a blind study on that because of the variables and tolerances involved.
No two amps are going to be exactly the same. So until scientists make a true cloning machine that clones everything down to the last molecule, we should just trust our own ears and leave the arguments to the Audiophools.

[UR12]

Since most of the TW style amps I build end up here in the US I have adopted a Red White and Blue wire scheme for my tube wiring. I use Red for the plates, Blue for the cathodes and White for the grids. This is #20 ga solid copper with PVC coating. It works and sounds awesome but I am not sure what it would sound like outside the country. I think that is why some of the cheap chinese crap sounds like it does. They are using unamerican wire colors.

[Richie]

So until scientists make a true cloning machine

The best minds in the world can't cure the common cold.

[Structo]

Red, White and Blue!

I love it!

Richie, didn't they clone a sheep not to long ago?

Certainly if they can clone an animal they could clone an amp.

[FYL]

I think that is why some of the cheap chinese crap sounds like it does. They are using unamerican wire colors.

And think about those using green wires for heaters. Green is the color of ecoterrorists as well as islamists, the traitors building such amps should be sent to Gitmo or Newark.