4-4-0 [2 NEW BUILDS WITH PICS; THE 2 WATT WRECK]

[JoeyE]

I'll play around with the coupling caps this weekend.

Heres my cab in the process for the wreckless, what do you think? https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=6576 Negative criticism apreciated too.

[GainMaster]

I'll play around with the coupling caps this weekend.

Heres my cab in the process for the wreckless, what do you think? https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=6576 Negative criticism apreciated too.

Should look pretty cool with about 10 coats of gloss poly on it. Cliff built my head cab. I'm going to have to put mine in the cab one day LOL.

Brian

[Colossal]

I'll play around with the coupling caps this weekend.

Heres my cab in the process for the wreckless, what do you think? https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=6576 Negative criticism apreciated too.

Should look pretty cool with about 10 coats of gloss polly on it. Cliff built my head cab. I'm going to have to put mine in the cab one day LOL.

Brian

Hi Brian and JoeyE,

I've been following this thread with great interest so thanks for posting all of the details about your amps. Many of my questions have been answered along the way. I asked about this a little before, but can you comment on your experiences with how the 4-4-0 with the p/p 6SN7 compares tonewise to a higher power build with the same preamp and PI?

I've been contemplating building a standard 30+watt Wreck clone or variant but having just completed a 2x6V6 build I'm finding that maybe it would be nice to have the same tone quality, just less of it I'm using a VVR in my 2x6V6 Plexi and it does a great job of getting the volume to a very manageable level without compromising the tone.

For for a new build I had been considering an Express or a Concorde but your success with the 4-4-0 Wreckless has me again considering the viability of a low watt amp(s) for personal jamming and practice. I am just worried that I cannot get a low wattage amp to sound enough like a med to high power amp tonally to be satisfied. I'm worried about building it and then saying "it's close but something's missing". I just don't have any experience with low wattage amps aside from the various sound clips out there to see if they sound "big" enough. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, I'm just trying to see if this project would be a good fit for my needs.

I'm really attracted to being able to build one of these amps in a small footprint, maybe even two and run'em in stereo! Wouldn't that be insanity? The point is, if I can move a closed back 2x12 with Greenbacks with a 3W amp and say, damn! that low end sounds as good as my 2x6V6! then I'm sold. There's not a vast difference in cost between a low and high watt amp since all of the components are pretty much the same except the transformers so for me it's really a question of:

1) Do low wattage amps meet or exceed tonal expectations with dimed volume being about perfect for personal jamming
or
2) Do I continue to build higher wattage amps and use the VVR to control overall volume

What do you think? Can you help me out??

Thanks, in advance for any light you can shed on this to help me make up my bloody mind

[Colossal]

I'll play around with the coupling caps this weekend.

Heres my cab in the process for the wreckless, what do you think? https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=6576 Negative criticism apreciated too.

JoeyE,

I've been checking out your build photos. I think your amp and cab both turned out very, very nicely. Great job! It is very neat and it looks like you put a lot of effort into it. I'm looking forward to hearing clips and comments on increasing the value of the V2-to-V3 coupling cap.

Regards,
Colossal

[GainMaster]

I'll play around with the coupling caps this weekend.

Heres my cab in the process for the wreckless, what do you think? https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=6576 Negative criticism apreciated too.

Should look pretty cool with about 10 coats of gloss polly on it. Cliff built my head cab. I'm going to have to put mine in the cab one day LOL.

Brian

Hi Brian and JoeyE,

I've been following this thread with great interest so thanks for posting all of the details about your amps. Many of my questions have been answered along the way. I asked about this a little before, but can you comment on your experiences with how the 4-4-0 with the p/p 6SN7 compares tonewise to a higher power build with the same preamp and PI?

I've been contemplating building a standard 30+watt Wreck clone or variant but having just completed a 2x6V6 build I'm finding that maybe it would be nice to have the same tone quality, just less of it I'm using a VVR in my 2x6V6 Plexi and it does a great job of getting the volume to a very manageable level without compromising the tone.

For for a new build I had been considering an Express or a Concorde but your success with the 4-4-0 Wreckless has me again considering the viability of a low watt amp(s) for personal jamming and practice. I am just worried that I cannot get a low wattage amp to sound enough like a med to high power amp tonally to be satisfied. I'm worried about building it and then saying "it's close but something's missing". I just don't have any experience with low wattage amps aside from the various sound clips out there to see if they sound "big" enough. I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner, I'm just trying to see if this project would be a good fit for my needs.

I'm really attracted to being able to build one of these amps in a small footprint, maybe even two and run'em in stereo! Wouldn't that be insanity? The point is, if I can move a closed back 2x12 with Greenbacks with a 3W amp and say, damn! that low end sounds as good as my 2x6V6! then I'm sold. There's not a vast difference in cost between a low and high watt amp since all of the components are pretty much the same except the transformers so for me it's really a question of:

1) Do low wattage amps meet or exceed tonal expectations with dimed volume being about perfect for personal jamming
or
2) Do I continue to build higher wattage amps and use the VVR to control overall volume

What do you think? Can you help me out??

Thanks, in advance for any light you can shed on this to help me make up my bloody mind

First, let me say I'm not going to try to sell you on the amp, just povide information. Cliff Chappell designed the amp with obvious kudos to Ken. Cliff spent a lot of time on the 6sn7 out put section. After trying many small amps and being dissapointed, he decided that what separated small amps from big amps were certain parts shuch as a PI, choke, presence, negative feedback, etc. which are usually left off small amps because of cost. Ultimately he designed the October~Studio with the 6sn7 output section. Now, Cliff has the October~Club also with the 6v6 output to compare it to. So far, he has been happy with the 6sn7. I haven't heard a full size Wreck so I can't make a comparison. I can say it seems to work like it should with a sweet spot at 12:00 on the volume.

As a practice amp, the mini wreck works well unless you have a really efficent speaker. Close a beadroom door and you can play away without the wife getting upset.

As for bottom end, the 6sn7 has plenty, the vintage RCA having the most. The Tung Sol tall bottle is very tight and has the chime you heard on the clip.

Gotta go. I'll get back to this later

Brian

[Colossal]

First, let me say I'm not going to try to sell you on the amp, just povide information. Cliff Chappell designed the amp with obvious kudos to Ken. Cliff spent a lot of time on the 6sn7 out put section. After trying many small amps and being dissapointed, he decided that what separated small amps from big amps were certain parts shuch as a PI, choke, presence, negative feedback, etc. which are usually left off small amps because of cost. Ultimately he designed the October~Studio with the 6sn7 output section. Now, Cliff has the October~Club also with the 6v6 output to compare it to. So far, he has been happy with the 6sn7.

No, I wasn't looking for the sell, just your thoughts as to whether you think a low power build is truly capable of producing a satisfying level of tonal equivalence with larger legacy amps from which they are modeled, but at a manageable volume. Your comments are great and the kind of thing I've been wanting clarification on. It's nice to know the 6sn7 is promising as I've heard some not so favorable things about using a 12AU7 as a split power tube. That's why I've been somewhat hesitant about the whole low power idea.

So I haven't heard a full size Wreck so I can't make a comparison. I can say it seems to work like it should with a sweet spot at 12:00 on the volume.

Yeah, me neither, aside from the demos and the benchmark videos such as Glen K's and Plaque's posted here.

As a practice amp, the mini wreck works well unless you have a really efficent speaker. Close a beadroom door and you can play away without the wife getting upset.

I would be using Greenbacks. I wonder how a 20w Heritage GB might compare with the 25w?

As for bottom end, the 6sn7 has plenty, the vintage RCA having the most. The Tung Sol tall bottle is very tight and has the chime you heard on the clip.

Great man, thanks for your feedback and all the details. I appreciate the help.

[GainMaster]

First, let me say I'm not going to try to sell you on the amp, just povide information. Cliff Chappell designed the amp with obvious kudos to Ken. Cliff spent a lot of time on the 6sn7 out put section. After trying many small amps and being dissapointed, he decided that what separated small amps from big amps were certain parts shuch as a PI, choke, presence, negative feedback, etc. which are usually left off small amps because of cost. Ultimately he designed the October~Studio with the 6sn7 output section. Now, Cliff has the October~Club also with the 6v6 output to compare it to. So far, he has been happy with the 6sn7.

No, I wasn't looking for the sell, just your thoughts as to whether you think a low power build is truly capable of producing a satisfying level of tonal equivalence with larger legacy amps from which they are modeled, but at a manageable volume. Your comments are great and the kind of thing I've been wanting clarification on. It's nice to know the 6sn7 is promising as I've heard some not so favorable things about using a 12AU7 as a split power tube. That's why I've been somewhat hesitant about the whole low power idea.

So I haven't heard a full size Wreck so I can't make a comparison. I can say it seems to work like it should with a sweet spot at 12:00 on the volume.

Yeah, me neither, aside from the demos and the benchmark videos such as Glen K's and Plaque's posted here.

As a practice amp, the mini wreck works well unless you have a really efficent speaker. Close a beadroom door and you can play away without the wife getting upset.

I would be using Greenbacks. I wonder how a 20w Heritage GB might compare with the 25w?

As for bottom end, the 6sn7 has plenty, the vintage RCA having the most. The Tung Sol tall bottle is very tight and has the chime you heard on the clip.

Great man, thanks for your feedback and all the details. I appreciate the help.

Cool. I had to run earlier. Sorry. Cliff was dissapointed with the 12au7 output section also. The 6sn7 does sound like a big bottle amp. A lot like the EL34 in that it breaks up early and can take a lot of signal before going into blocking distortion. Can't comment on the speaker choice except to say I'm Using an Eminence Legend 12" and it is great home for practice. I have had a few big bottle amps and currently have a Lead I with 6550s. Great bottom end. The 6sn7 is my favorite tube though.

Brian

[GainMaster]

OK, like most home builders I am a tweaker and have tried several things with this amp including changing the third stage tube to a 12au7. What has me tweaking is that I have difficulty going totally clean with a HB. I usually have to switch to a single coil or coil split to go totally clean with the volume on 5. The amp also has a very narrow sweet spot for the mean to clean thing so it is pretty much a one trick pony in that it has it has a distinctive tone at 5 and you can't get much else without loosing the mean to clean thing.

I have been experimenting with a 12av7 in the PI as it adds a wider range of tones and does the mean to clean thing better but you lose a bit of the blooming that makes the Wreck special. The good news is I think I have found a solution.

I needed to push the 6sn7 a bit harder to get the blooming back when using the 12av7 in the PI. To that end I removed R20 and R21 and changed R14 and R15 to 5.6K. This makes the output section more like a normal Wreck and makes sure there is nothing in the signal path to dull the sparkling highs the Wreck is known for. I also changed R31 to 150K. This put me pretty much back where I started tone wise when using a 12ax7 for the PI so I decided to try a 12ay7 in the first preamp slot. I had tried this before the mods but you lost volume when changing from mean to clean.

Bingo, I can now go totally clean (spanking, sparkeling Fender twin clean) with the volume on 5 using HBs with no loss of volume. It has all the blooming it had with the 12ax7 in the PI, and you have a much wider sweet spot. Now it really sounds much more like the tones I hear on Glen's CD.

The schematic will stay the same until a couple of you confirm these mods. Have fun.

Thanks
Brian

[JoeyE]

OK, like most home builders I am a tweaker and have tried several things with this amp including changing the third stage tube to a 12au7. What has me tweaking is that I have difficulty going totally clean with a HB. I usually have to switch to a single coil or coil split to go totally clean with the volume on 5. The amp also has a very narrow sweet spot for the mean to clean thing so it is pretty much a one trick pony in that it has it has a distinctive tone at 5 and you can't get much else without loosing the mean to clean thing.

I have been experimenting with a 12av7 in the PI as it adds a wider range of tones and does the mean to clean thing better but you lose a bit of the blooming that makes the Wreck special. The good news is I think I have found a solution.

I needed to push the 6sn7 a bit harder to get the blooming back when using the 12av7 in the PI. To that end I removed R20 and R21 and changed R14 and R15 to 5.6K. This makes the output section more like a normal Wreck and makes sure there is nothing in the signal path to dull the sparkling highs the Wreck is known for. I also changed R31 to 150K. This put me pretty much back where I started tone wise when using a 12ax7 for the PI so I decided to try a 12ay7 in the first preamp slot. I had tried this before the mods but you lost volume when changing from mean to clean.

Bingo, I can now go totally clean (spanking, sparkeling Fender twin clean) with the volume on 5 using HBs with no loss of volume. It has all the blooming it had with the 12ax7 in the PI, and you have a much wider sweet spot. Now it really sounds much more like the tones I hear on Glen's CD.

The schematic will stay the same until a couple of you confirm these mods. Have fun.

Thanks
Brian

Wow full blooming and all! Your getting me exited like a boy on christmas morning! LOL

I'll have to try all these mods out right after my cab is all done.

[GainMaster]

OKThanks
Brian

Wow full blooming and all! Your getting me exited like a boy on christmas morning! LOL

I'll have to try all these mods out right after my cab is all done.

The highs seem more chimey with the mods and the overall tone is much smoother. More like Glen's CD than before. I would suggest building it stock and just popping in a 12av7 in the PI. That change goes from a more modern metal tone to a more blusey tone. If you decide you like the change then go for the mods. You can still go back to the more modern tones after the mod by switching the 12ay7 in the first position to a 12ax7.

Brian

[GainMaster]

A few minor changes have been made to the schematic. The most important one was changing the presence pot to 25k. Increasing either the presence cap or the presence pot has a very distinctive effect on the blooming. It increases

Brian

[GainMaster]

I made the tonestack and presence changes in the revised schematic to my amp. The amp is a bit darker now as I was using a linear pot for the treble pot. The nice thing is the tonestack attenuates the signal more so the amp cleans up more like it should. (The linear treble pot I was using was likely causing the trouble I was having going from mean to clean) I'm still keeping the 12av7 in the PI as it is a good match gain wise for the 6sn7 but had to switch the 12ay7 I put in the first preamp slot back to a 12ax7 because it was too clean after the tonestack changes.

The new presence pot is very effective. The amp has a very wide sweet spot now, from 4 to 8 on the volume. Just turn the guitar's volume to between 2 and 3, use the amp's volume to dial in the level of clean you want, then let her rip. At the higher gain settings you have to turn the presence pot down some to make it clean up well. My appolgies to current builders who have to make changes but this was a prototype amp. There will likely be a couple of more minor changes as some of you come online with your amps and start tweaking.

Brian

[JoeyE]

I made the tonestack and presence changes in the revised schematic to my amp. The amp is a bit darker now as I was using a linear pot for the treble pot. The nice thing is the tonestack attenuates the signal more so the amp cleans up more like it should. (The linear treble pot I was using was likely causing the trouble I was having going from mean to clean) I'm still keeping the 12av7 in the PI as it is a good match gain wise for the 6sn7 but had to switch the 12ay7 I put in the first preamp slot back to a 12ax7 because it was too clean after the tonestack changes.

The new presence pot is very effective. The amp has a very wide sweet spot now, from 4 to 8 on the volume. Just turn the guitar's volume to between 2 and 3, use the amp's volume to dial in the level of clean you want, then let her rip. At the higher gain settings you have to turn the presence pot down some to make it clean up well. My appolgies to current builders who have to make changes but this was a prototype amp. There will likely be a couple of more minor changes as some of you come online with your amps and start tweaking.

Brian

Test point voltages are also now available too on the new schematic. I wish i had them when i built mine to save a lot of tinkering and time.

By the way Brian, what state you at?

[GainMaster]

Test point voltages are also now available too on the new schematic. I wish i had them when i built mine to save a lot of tinkering and time.

By the way Brian, what state you at?

Mississippi. Our McDonalds have possum burgers

Brian

[cliffchappell]

I made the tonestack and presence changes in the revised schematic to my amp. The amp is a bit darker now as I was using a linear pot for the treble pot. The nice thing is the tonestack attenuates the signal more so the amp cleans up more like it should. (The linear treble pot I was using was likely causing the trouble I was having going from mean to clean)

I've been wondering why you were having problems with it cleaning up and I suppose that was it. I've had the current stack in mine so long, not to mention being without power for 3 weeks, that I had forgotten what it sounded like with the LIN pots in there.