18watt Liverpool build *** IT'S ALIVE!!!! ***

[DerStever]

Actually the unibit went thru it like a hot knife in butter - thats the least of my problems. The last tweaks yielded slightly better tone but its still too aggressive and raw sounding without the thick distortion I get from my express. I'm using the 6PS caps too and it sounds like a big JBL speaker - bright and tinny. When you crank up the volume it just gets muddy and looses its shape.

What I'd like to know is should I try the Ceriatone Liverpool front end; at least the pots, PI and the tone stack? I'd leave the power tube section pretty much as is running the two EL84s as they are - maybe swap out the 68K for a 100K on the PI plates but leave everything else alone?

Has anyone tried doing this or am I going to be on the bleeding edge?

[UR12]

The last tweaks yielded slightly better tone but its still too aggressive and raw sounding without the thicksounds like a big JBL speaker - bright and tinny. When you crank up the volume it just gets muddy and looses its shape.

What I'd like to know is should I try the Ceriatone Liverpool front end; at least the pots, PI and the tone stack? I'd leave the power tube section pretty much as is running the two EL84s as they are - maybe swap out the 68K for a 100K on the PI plates but leave everything else alone?

Has anyone tried doing this or am I going to be on the bleeding edge?

I would build it exactly like the liverpool (Front end, PI and PA). 8k tranny would work fine but I think if you went with a 10k it might even be a little closer to sounding and playing like a Liverpool. I have heard a liverpool played at 1/2 power (2 x tubes) and it still sounded great! I don't think you'll ever get the Marshall 18watt PI and power amp values to sound like a wreck. Just my 2 cents

[DerStever]

It wont be exact ie it'll have to have the two channels and four inputs. Not even sure if I want to swap out the OT unless I really have to, but I'll do everything else and we'll see what happens. Both trannys are heybour for GDS - they may be close to what we need or they may just give it a tad more British vibe which is also fine with me. Who knows maybe we'll discover a brand new species!

Right now the tone is slightly rawer than George Thorougood's "Bad to the Bone". But without the bass end holding up. Not what I want.

[UR12]

It wont be exact ie it'll have to have the two channels and four inputs. Not even sure if I want to swap out the OT unless I really have to, but I'll do everything else and we'll see what happens. Both trannys are heybour for GDS - they may be close to what we need or they may just give it a tad more British vibe which is also fine with me. Who knows maybe we'll discover a brand new species!

Right now the tone is slightly rawer than George Thorougood's "Bad to the Bone". But without the bass end holding up. Not what I want.

So you are also running a 290-0-290 tranny instead of 260-0-260?

I just called Heyboer and ordered me a special set of trannys with the lower voltage and the 10.5k Pri on the OT. I want to finish my 2 channel "Inspired" amp and then I am on this combo.

[DerStever]

Yeah its the 290 - 0 - 290 and probably the 8K OT. I 'll let you know what happens when its done - hopefully this weekend.

Thanks.

[UR12]

Yeah its the 290 - 0 - 290 and probably the 8K OT. I 'll let you know what happens when its done - hopefully this weekend.

Thanks.

Please keep us posted. I should have trannys in about 2 weeks so I won’t get mine started until probably next month. I think I have everything else except for the can caps for my build so it should go quickly after that.

Good luck with your build!

[Zippy]

Oh yeah and being its a combo - I see why Ken stayed away from that. It may be more trouble than its worth.

What "issues" does the amp have that you can attribute to being a combo? I have a donor combo Randall RT-30 that may be a Rocket when it goes to heaven.

[DerStever]

Rattling items - certain tubes that wouldn't normally rattle in a head so to speak will make noizes in a combo - I also don't think Ken used tube shields on the 12ax7s which you have to use with a combo unless you have another way to hold them in place. Tube holders are also a source of rattle.

Any slightest bit of rattle is way amplified by these amps - so some tubes I had no issues with in my native 18 watter became noizy when it was 'wreck'd. Ive since changed em out but the potential is always there for that to happen - probably at some inopportune time.

[Zippy]

Thanks.

[DerStever]

I did most of the changes to the Liverpool side last evening and it sounded much better - smoother distortion and pretty nice tone - that was the first listen and theres more to do but I think I may be on the right track.

The only differences besides the PS from Ceriatone LP layout is the presence pot is a 5K and Ive still got the 470K resistors on the control grids. Which I think have to stay that way.

[DerStever]

Well I finished the Liverpool tweaks on my 18 watt and while its an improvement there are still somethings that I don't like.

1. You have to turn it to 8 to get into that classic TW distortion otherwise its very thin sounding and mild breakup. It also seems not as loud as it was before as an 18 watt - course that could be my hearing

2. It doesn't have much of that singing quality my Express does.

3. I'd like more sustain and glassy high end like the Express has once its into the full overdrive.

The only thing I didn't change was the Pin 2 circuit on the EL84s - I left the resistors at 470Ks - 220K like in the Ceriatone TRex. I was afraid to fool with this as the Liverpool is feeding 4 EL84s and the resistors are way much different value 220K - 1.5K - so if I should do this let me know.

Also Dana - if you are reading this - my HV tap is 300 V - I ran it thru the variac and dialed back the feed into the EZ81 at 265VAC. It seems a little warmer and faster break up but it wasn't a huge change over what its doing now. So I'd be real interested in how you make out with your new tranny.

[UR12]

Well I finished the Liverpool tweaks on my 18 watt and while its an improvement there are still somethings that I don't like.

1. You have to turn it to 8 to get into that classic TW distortion otherwise its very thin sounding and mild breakup. It also seems not as loud as it was before as an 18 watt - course that could be my hearing

2. It doesn't have much of that singing quality my Express does.

3. I'd like more sustain and glassy high end like the Express has once its into the full overdrive.

The only thing I didn't change was the Pin 2 circuit on the EL84s - I left the resistors at 470Ks - 220K like in the Ceriatone TRex. I was afraid to fool with this as the Liverpool is feeding 4 EL84s and the resistors are way much different value 220K - 1.5K - so if I should do this let me know.

Also Dana - if you are reading this - my HV tap is 300 V - I ran it thru the variac and dialed back the feed into the EZ81 at 265VAC. It seems a little warmer and faster break up but it wasn't a huge change over what its doing now. So I'd be real interested in how you make out with your new tranny.

Thanks for the update! I really think you need to get the PI values changed to match the pool and also change the 8.2k resistors over to 1.5k and I would bet you will start getting some of those Liverpool sounds. Is your power supply a Marshall Style ot TW style as this is also a factor in getting the preamp voltages where they need to be?

Just my 2 cents

[DerStever]

Thanks Dana,

I'll give that all a try - I also noticed on the Ceriatone VS the new Layout by DR Hulsey there are some differences:

The Bass POT is 250K vs 1m respectively.
The 100pf cap is 47pf.

I'll try the changes incrementally. It'll be interesting how this goes. The tranny is a heybour (marshall style) made specifically for GDS amps. Which is ok if this amp has a Marshall leaning since I love the Marshall sound anyway. I'm not really that much of a purist as to build it like Ken if I can accomplish making the amp sound the way I want it to in my head. Very scary thought, that.

[UR12]

Thanks Dana,

I'll give that all a try - I also noticed on the Ceriatone VS the new Layout by DR Hulsey there are some differences:

The Bass POT is 250K vs 1m respectively.
The 100pf cap is 47pf.

I'll try the changes incrementally. It'll be interesting how this goes. The tranny is a heybour (marshall style) made specifically for GDS amps. Which is ok if this amp has a Marshall leaning since I love the Marshall sound anyway. I'm not really that much of a purist as to build it like Ken if I can accomplish making the amp sound the way I want it to in my head. Very scary thought, that.

1meg and 47pf are the correct values

I don't think that the 8k tranny is that much of a difference but the PI values and the 8.2k grid resistors changed to 1.5k will make a difference and maybe not make a hugh difference in the voicing but a big difference in the gain structure of the amp. The gain structure should help you get back the sustain and feel of a wreck that you feel your are missing. It will be interesting to see what happens when you change them.

[DerStever]

I changed the resistors and the 47pf and yes its getting better. Did the bass pot to a 1m linear. Its still dirtier and colder sounding than I'd like, by that I mean the distortion isn't creamy, its somewhere in between dirty and creamy. There is not enough glass - Ive hard wired a 500pf bright cap and that still isn't cutting it - remember I'm using a single coil strat to test with - this amp is brighter than daylight when turned down but as you increase the volume it gets dirtier and bassier.

It is very touch sensitive. Maybe I should try Mallory 150s instead of the P6s - that might warm it up a bit.