Wire, Wire, Wire

[Richie]

as in your search for old parts or exact. There are many spools of every type NOS wire out there for sale if you didn't want to use the "New" wire.

I was meaning too, all the wreck amps are not exact in what wire or caps they used. One may use a 22uf 25v where another used 25uf 25v. One may use mallory power caps, another CDE. Same with signal caps. Not all used the PVC mallory caps. You might say, exact to what amp.

The wire companies still make or list many types.
General/Carol cable or wire, and Consolidated, Alpha, and huge list.
But if your afraid to buy the new wire. Look for the NOS, plenty of it out there to be found.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... 18R-100-ND

http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/US2010/P2345.pdf

[selloutrr]

Congratulations on your amp build, I'm glad you are happy with how it turned out.
I keep saying this because it's an important part of a parts correct build.
Honsetly I have no interest in just getting the amp to work, I could have done that 5 years ago.
You do have a good point for new clone builds for removing unwanted fidelity but in order to snub out the difference wouldn't you need a sample of actual wire to measure before you can make the proper adjustments?

Stancore A-3801
5 black bell cloth lead covers. late 50's early 60's? (2 additional blown)
(1 new in box, 3 long leads, 1 clipped)
4 Grey bell plastic leads not sure of the dates (1 additional broken tap)
(2 new in box, 2 med leads)

I have not tried a listening test between the black and grey it's possible it's only cosmetic.

yes the P-8164 seemed the closest but still felt off because it was a single tap, but should work as long as the size is good.

I've had great luck in TV service shops, they are getting harder to find since the Flat screen trend.

[Zippy]

You do have a good point for new clone builds for removing unwanted fidelity but in order to snub out the difference wouldn't you need a sample of actual wire to measure before you can make the proper adjustments?

I have not tried a listening test between the black and grey it's possible it's only cosmetic.

Yes, you would need the "correct" wire and as Richie has noted, it is still available. This lil' experiment is something that I've been tossing 'round with RJ for some time now. I hope that we'll soon find/make time to make a jig to hold a length of wire against a mock chassis to make the measurements.

[selloutrr]

The "NOS" wire that I've come across is not actually NOS it's new production made to model the look of the old but with better fidelity (radiated).

I'm almost tempted to use some old non radiated hookup wire I have in stock but it's not color code correct. but going on wrecks can be different it might be the way to go. I'd just hate to go through all the effort to cut corners now.

leading us back to full circle. I agree not every amp is made with the same parts but the parts of that time period had a special mojo.
25uf - 22uf basically the same very little if any change. but the 25uf are much easier to find!

Since franchesca is so well documented I have based most of the parts off of her time period.

Another Question is what would a full date code correct parts Kit for an Express, Liverpool or Rocket be worth?

[Ken Moon]

Another Question is what would a full date code correct parts Kit for an Express, Liverpool or Rocket be worth?

Well, a Ceriatone Expression kit sells for $670 plus shipping, so I would guess maybe $900 to $1k.

Unless you can sell it to one of the maybe 50 people in the world who thinks it matters.

I look at this TW obsession like antique car restoration, where a few people care if the latch on the wing window of your '57 Chevy is original or a reproduction, and are willing to pay a lot more for the original. But even the most obsessed car builder wouldn't claim that the proper wing window latch is essential to the car's handling, or that only one human could ever properly install it.

Oh well - the TW threads are at least an interesting read - keep 'em coming

[brewdude]

I just don't understand why one would obsess so much about something so seemingly trivial. I love this forum and have learned a bunch, and realize there are a ton of things that I still don't comprehend, but what do you get by worrying so much about every last detail being exact in your copy of someone else's creation. Do you think that KF or HAD would obsess for five years to find the perfect period correct wire in order to build a clone?

I think this kind of hero worshipping is obscuring the real point of this obsession, which seems to me to build great sounding, great feeling, highly responsive and dynamic amp that becomes a musical instrument itself and inspires one to produce wonderful music.

[Ken Moon]

Is there even any such thing as radiated wire?

All I've ever seen mentioned is irradiated, meaning treated with radiation to make the PVC harder to melt when soldering, but never "radiated".

I couldn't even find the word radiated in any dictionary, used to describe a treatment or process of any kind.

Have you all run across any references to radiated wire, and it's electrical properties, and if so, could you post a link? If this is a product, wouldn't there be data sheets? Thanks!

[67plexi]

Wire, find the best you can buy and get the job done. Why not use better parts than Ken used?
I used solid silver 20 AWG & 18 AWG stranded for the grounds and filaments, x6 TW builds.
No hiss no hum. Resistors are a place to upgrade. Takman, Kiwame are good carbon films for the money.
What are you after sonic Bliss or a carbon copy? If ken didn’t build it it’s not a real Trainwreck.

[selloutrr]

It's probably my OCD but I don't see much point in cloning with what is on hand since it won't be correct by purrist standards, I agree a clone will never be an original but if it's the correct parts it's as close as possible. In most cases, the clone's turn out to be worth less then the parts it took to build it and ends up being just another amp. Since I'm more of a collector and hardly ever gig I'd like it to be as close as possible to an original, more like a tribute.
Honestly I'm not trying to worship or get crazy about the designer just out of respect doing it right. As far as HAD I really couldn't give a care for a dumble, they are nice amps, and howard maybe very skilled but his attitude is so poor I would hate to inflate his ego anymore. I've worked with actual Dumble amps several times and own several cloner company builds, they are all about the same amp, give or take a little dynamic that is usually covered up or lost in a full mix. I was far more impressed with the players then I was with the amp.
The trainwreck is a whole other story Ken was polite, knowledgable and friendly. That makes the tribute Wreck a fun project because I have a finished goal in sight and it's not so easy I can call and give a credit card number and wait for parts I actually have to search for them. but it is possible to track down the right parts so, it's not just frustration and I get rewarded for the time and effort. It's a great feeling when a hard to find part arrives and you get that much closer.
Honestly I have more amps then I have space so the actual amp matters very little but if it's correct it'll be a great acomplishment and a nice cherry on the top of a great collection.
I'm sure this sounds strange but i've been sitting on the parts to make a clone for years and just cant motivate myself to build it cause it not correct to the original, I want it to be able to hold it's own in everyway. Since it's been said "every piece matters", if you aren't forced to hurry and get it done why not make it right?
If correct kits are only worth a grand I'll put the extra parts back into my stock for future builds / repairs.
I'm not saying it'll be better then the clones other's have built just closer to the original and it's the choice I've made in how I want to build. It wont mean anything to anyone else but i'll be proud.

[Cliff Schecht]

I just moved into a new house the other day and am starting to unpack my workroom. As it looks now, there are a good 30+ boxes that hold some part/parts needed to build an amp. I've been collecting parts for years as well, although unfortunately my collection has a lot less focus towards a particular amp. I think we can all respect the fact that you've put in so much effort towards sourcing parts and building such a time-accurate clone. It's a process all cloners have surely been through by now. Taking no liberties in such a build takes way too long though. I've done similar things with guitar pedal builds and honestly, the difference in sound is usually arguable at best. But what you are doing is past mojo and you deserve respect just for the scope of your mighty task .


I assume it's meant to be similar to Francesca's time period? That would be the big issue IMO with building such an undocumented (and seemingly ever changing) amp design. You have to pick a time period, pick an amp and try to clone it accurately using parts available at THAT time. I'm pretty sure the wire KF used at that time was hard to find, let alone a good 25 years later. I still think KF was messing with cloners heads with some of what he said and now he's rolling in his grave as people take his humor seriously!

[Ken Moon]

I'm not saying it'll be better then the clones other's have built just closer to the original and it's the choice I've made in how I want to build. It wont mean anything to anyone else but i'll be proud.

Hey, that's what counts

I wouldn't buy a parts-correct '57 Chevy for $100k either, but I'd be pretty proud if I was the one who restored it from an old junker.

I for one will lay off the snarky comments about this hobby, but if someone asks a straightforward question about the technical merits of some part vs. another, I'll answer it technically - please don't take that as a personal insult, because it's not meant to be that at all.

Cheers

[selloutrr]

Yes since Francesca is highly documented it is a good reference. There is a liverpool on thunderfunk that is pretty well documented too. It's probably the way I'll go if I build anymore. At least for the Potentiometers, the CTS were/are way to frustrating / expensive to track down because I have had to buy amps and harvest parts. The Thunderfunk used PEM and ALPS which can still be sourced.

I'm sure KF had a sense of humor and a lot of this is a mute point, but in keeping with the original it's just going to be part of it.

The thunderfunk used different color coded wire so worste case if i can get the correct type of wire I can go that route.
The trainwreck's where custom made for the client and constantly evolving but I think they can be divided into a few basic types/ time periods.
1. The stancore A-3801 Blk then Grey Transformer
2. Pacific Transformers
3. Later Out sourced Builds ( are these excepted as actual TW? )

[Richie]

All I've ever seen mentioned is irradiated

I think it is listed by irradiated or non-irradiated.

As for parts, wire color, they didn't all use the same color. As for better parts.. sometimes the "best" high dollar parts, won't make your amp sound "best" it may even make it sound worse. Nothing wrong with using quality parts though.. but guitar amps can be a bit different.

I just don't understand why one would obsess so much about something so seemingly trivial.

I don't see why people build little ships in a bottle, but if thats what floats their boat,who cares..
Some might want to build one exact or close as possible,down to the direction of the screw slot.. nothing wrong with that,if thats what they want to do. Then others may even tweak or change the circut some..All depends on what your wanting.
Over the years i have found, someone might tell you a place has the best [insert your best food or drink] You try it, and don't like it as much as the person that told you about it. or ..its the best movie ever..and you may not think much of it. Finding what you like is the fun part,and mostly this is done by trying it yourself. Does it change the sound or feel, good or bad?

[brewdude]

Fair enough. I don't intend to offend anyone. I hope you succeed in your quest.

[brewdude]

Fair enough. I don't intend to offend anyone. I hope you succeed in your quest.