Wire
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Re: Wire
Ooohh - and here I am, thinkin' that teflon was the holy grail in this bussiness...???M Fowler wrote:All I know is that I prefer the PVC in a thick varient over the Teflon
Well- FWIW - and I've put quite some miles of teflon wire to good use... stranded that is....
and I'll be the first to admit, that without proper tooling, it's areal PITA....
little else I know of, though, holds up to higher temperatures as well as PTFE.... ( since duPont owns the trademark Teflon..)
Re: Wire
Yeah, I like it as well.
My hands aren't as steady as they once were, so if my iron strays a little bit it doesn't look like a three alarm fire was inside my amp.
It would be a shame if there was any truth to the rumor that it adds harshness to an amps tone.
As for the skin effect, I thought that only applied to much higher frequencies and not the guitar audio spectrum.
I re-wired my D'lite last fall because it was starting to look like Armageddon had been waged inside, due to many changes and tweaks.
So I freshened it up, all with 20ga solid wire w/ Teflon insulation.
I actually prefer the stranded but the solid stays put better.
I use a razor knife to strip it. I promise I don't nick it.
They do make some cool thermal strippers that will work on it but those are expensive, like $250-300 for a used one.
My hands aren't as steady as they once were, so if my iron strays a little bit it doesn't look like a three alarm fire was inside my amp.
It would be a shame if there was any truth to the rumor that it adds harshness to an amps tone.
As for the skin effect, I thought that only applied to much higher frequencies and not the guitar audio spectrum.
I re-wired my D'lite last fall because it was starting to look like Armageddon had been waged inside, due to many changes and tweaks.
So I freshened it up, all with 20ga solid wire w/ Teflon insulation.
I actually prefer the stranded but the solid stays put better.
I use a razor knife to strip it. I promise I don't nick it.
They do make some cool thermal strippers that will work on it but those are expensive, like $250-300 for a used one.
Tom
Don't let that smoke out!
Don't let that smoke out!
Re: Wire
I told Steve at Apex I would try some of his 20 and 18 awg teflon but the jacket is too thin for my taste so I have quite a bit of the stuff now since I already bought some from two other suppliers that I do not like.
I am going back to PVC 600v solid 18 and 20 AWG.
I am going back to PVC 600v solid 18 and 20 AWG.
Re: Wire
I hate teflon, it may be the greatest wire ever invented, but i wouldn't use it if they gave it to me for free. Ok, got that out 
I always liked uni-strand.
The NTE wire is 300v rated 10amps. Most any hookup wire will be UL or CSA rated UL 1007/1569 bla bla bla.
So no matter what brand, they will all be similar to pass those codes or ratings. Unless they sell wire without any ratings, maybe radio shack?
Also back years ago, i think you'd find GC waldom and others.
I don't know how long NTE has been a company, i think they bought out ECG. And like most things today, how many TVs, or any electronics may look the same with a different name on them. Meaning another company could have made it for them,and they stuck their name on it.
Seems if their were something special done to the wire, it would list it on the site,and/ or cost more. And it melts easy if you don't watch what your doing. So all of this leans toward the same type used in the wreck amps.
Maybe someone might know what Ken used,brand etc.
the semi ridged wire is listed 1061 rating.
I always liked uni-strand.
The NTE wire is 300v rated 10amps. Most any hookup wire will be UL or CSA rated UL 1007/1569 bla bla bla.
So no matter what brand, they will all be similar to pass those codes or ratings. Unless they sell wire without any ratings, maybe radio shack?
Also back years ago, i think you'd find GC waldom and others.
I don't know how long NTE has been a company, i think they bought out ECG. And like most things today, how many TVs, or any electronics may look the same with a different name on them. Meaning another company could have made it for them,and they stuck their name on it.
Seems if their were something special done to the wire, it would list it on the site,and/ or cost more. And it melts easy if you don't watch what your doing. So all of this leans toward the same type used in the wreck amps.
Maybe someone might know what Ken used,brand etc.
the semi ridged wire is listed 1061 rating.
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geetarpicker
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Re: Wire
There is one consistent issue I've seen with TW Express and Liverpool clones. Overall they run on the bright/harsh side when put up next to an original.
I wonder why that is?
I have a friend that recently put a very nice pro built Stancor OT clone up against an original Stancor OT Express. The original came out ahead without question. Even with the same tubes swapped back and forth and on the same cab. Just an age thing? Perhaps, but maybe there are still more keys to the puzzle...
I wonder why that is?
I have a friend that recently put a very nice pro built Stancor OT clone up against an original Stancor OT Express. The original came out ahead without question. Even with the same tubes swapped back and forth and on the same cab. Just an age thing? Perhaps, but maybe there are still more keys to the puzzle...
Re: Wire
Glen,
Old transformers behave differently than new transformers. One of the interesting things about metals used in OTs is that distortion characteristics increase with "jarring" of the transformer. Literally, if you hit your OT with a hammer, it will distort more. Strange but true. I have built lots of amps with old and new transformers, and I almost always prefer the amps built with a vintage OT. Mind you, the new transformers from Pacific and Heyboer used in Wrecks are GREAT! However, they do change in characteristics over time. On top of this, component values drift. Blueprinting of great sounding amps is very worthwhile.
Anyway, offer still stands if you want to experiment.
Now, say what you want about solid core wire, but after trying many recommended wire types, I'm sticking with my 20ga 600V PVC. Insulation is thick, but works great and has a positive affect on the tone to my ears.
Old transformers behave differently than new transformers. One of the interesting things about metals used in OTs is that distortion characteristics increase with "jarring" of the transformer. Literally, if you hit your OT with a hammer, it will distort more. Strange but true. I have built lots of amps with old and new transformers, and I almost always prefer the amps built with a vintage OT. Mind you, the new transformers from Pacific and Heyboer used in Wrecks are GREAT! However, they do change in characteristics over time. On top of this, component values drift. Blueprinting of great sounding amps is very worthwhile.
Anyway, offer still stands if you want to experiment.
Now, say what you want about solid core wire, but after trying many recommended wire types, I'm sticking with my 20ga 600V PVC. Insulation is thick, but works great and has a positive affect on the tone to my ears.
Eardrums!!! We don't need no stinkin' eardrums!
Re: Wire
Glen,
you didn't answer my question...does orphan annie wiring matches with Franchesca or the undocumented express? or is it diferent than both?
Other question...how does Orphan Annie sounds when...
you don't use 2 instrument cables connected in series?
you play the amp with other speaker cabinets?
you have siemens el34's and tungsram 12ax7's?
do the clones that you built sound also harsh and bright?
just curious....
you didn't answer my question...does orphan annie wiring matches with Franchesca or the undocumented express? or is it diferent than both?
Other question...how does Orphan Annie sounds when...
you don't use 2 instrument cables connected in series?
you play the amp with other speaker cabinets?
you have siemens el34's and tungsram 12ax7's?
do the clones that you built sound also harsh and bright?
just curious....
Re: Wire
I have been using ken Watts wire for my latest builds great wire.
One thing is for sure the last Express I built is way darker than my others and I used Pacific transformers, 6PS OD, PVC wire, Mallary filter caps. I can actually use the bright switch on 500pf and I like it at that setting. Couldn't do that with the others.
One thing is for sure the last Express I built is way darker than my others and I used Pacific transformers, 6PS OD, PVC wire, Mallary filter caps. I can actually use the bright switch on 500pf and I like it at that setting. Couldn't do that with the others.
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geetarpicker
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Re: Wire
"Glen,
you didn't answer my question..."
Here's some answers>
does orphan annie wiring matches with Franchesca or the undocumented express? or is it diferent than both?
Seems to match, except some color changes. I quickly looked over the Francesca pics and the blacks on V1 are yellow in mine. Black on V2 is yellow in mine. The white wire near V3 connecting the board terminal with the .1 cap is green in mine. The long wire on my pots is blue, the wire from the volume center tap to the switch on mine is white. My bright switch is wired different than Francesca, which folks have found helps reduce noise. Basically the two leads from the switch and bright caps go to the opposite pot terminals on my amp. My low bright is a 50pf not 100pf but I rarely use that position. FYI my 500pf bright is with the switch down. My fizz cap is brown, not blue like in Francesca. My PS wiring on the 4 large resistors (the short jumpers connecting the 4 resistor) are all under the board with buss wire. My HV lead coming off the lower side of the 25 watt resistor is quite large and goes overtop everything. My filament leads are all black. My input lead from the jack is thin shielded grey cable, and no other wires are shielded. That might not all be 100% accurate, but given a quick look I think that's most or all of it. My tube sockets are all Cinch, and my impedance selector is a plastic Lorin.
Other question...how does Orphan Annie sounds when...
you don't use 2 instrument cables connected in series?
A little brighter than I like in the extreme treble, though on occasion I record with one cord for clearer chunky rhythm tones. However with higher gain typically I like the smoother top end of 2 cords for most lead work. For what it's worth the cord I used on most of my old CD was a 40' one measuring close to 3500pf. It would take about 6 Mogami 18' cords in series to have that much capacitance! That said, when I play that cord these days it's a little too dark and adds an upper mid resonance peak almost like a cocked way. Perhaps my signal chain in my old studio balanced it out. These days with my better recording gear (API pres, API EQs, Apogee converters, Royer ribbon, Sennheiser e906, etc) I find the simple loading of two mogamis seems about right. Any other EQ changes I do during mixdown and by mic position during tracking. I should mention I like the 2 cords with all my amps, though with my superbass 100 or fender '64 deluxes the two cords is simply because I use pedals with those other rigs.
you play the amp with other speaker cabinets? Sounds best to me on old G12Ms, but Scumback M75s are a nice new substitute.
you have siemens el34's and tungsram 12ax7's? I've only had 3 tungsrams back in the early 90s that are pretty weak these days. Most of my recordings are with either EI, old Tungsol, or Sylvanias. Typically Siemens EL34s, but sometimes the new GT EL34Ms. Rarely have I used old Mullard 34s as they seem a bit too bright. Clearer perhaps, but a little too extended on top. In my amps the darn reissue GT34s are almost nicer sounding in regards to the top end. I recently got a set of NOS Nationals that sound VERY nice now that thery are broken it (were a bit fizzy at first) and are probably the same tube as the old Siemens I used on my 1st CD.
do the clones that you built sound also harsh and bright? Just a hair brighter and a hair harsher, but my two clones match my original in this regard more closely than any other clones I've played. They also respond pretty much identically to tube, cords, guitar, bias, and speaker choices.
I hope that ballparks it!
you didn't answer my question..."
Here's some answers>
does orphan annie wiring matches with Franchesca or the undocumented express? or is it diferent than both?
Seems to match, except some color changes. I quickly looked over the Francesca pics and the blacks on V1 are yellow in mine. Black on V2 is yellow in mine. The white wire near V3 connecting the board terminal with the .1 cap is green in mine. The long wire on my pots is blue, the wire from the volume center tap to the switch on mine is white. My bright switch is wired different than Francesca, which folks have found helps reduce noise. Basically the two leads from the switch and bright caps go to the opposite pot terminals on my amp. My low bright is a 50pf not 100pf but I rarely use that position. FYI my 500pf bright is with the switch down. My fizz cap is brown, not blue like in Francesca. My PS wiring on the 4 large resistors (the short jumpers connecting the 4 resistor) are all under the board with buss wire. My HV lead coming off the lower side of the 25 watt resistor is quite large and goes overtop everything. My filament leads are all black. My input lead from the jack is thin shielded grey cable, and no other wires are shielded. That might not all be 100% accurate, but given a quick look I think that's most or all of it. My tube sockets are all Cinch, and my impedance selector is a plastic Lorin.
Other question...how does Orphan Annie sounds when...
you don't use 2 instrument cables connected in series?
A little brighter than I like in the extreme treble, though on occasion I record with one cord for clearer chunky rhythm tones. However with higher gain typically I like the smoother top end of 2 cords for most lead work. For what it's worth the cord I used on most of my old CD was a 40' one measuring close to 3500pf. It would take about 6 Mogami 18' cords in series to have that much capacitance! That said, when I play that cord these days it's a little too dark and adds an upper mid resonance peak almost like a cocked way. Perhaps my signal chain in my old studio balanced it out. These days with my better recording gear (API pres, API EQs, Apogee converters, Royer ribbon, Sennheiser e906, etc) I find the simple loading of two mogamis seems about right. Any other EQ changes I do during mixdown and by mic position during tracking. I should mention I like the 2 cords with all my amps, though with my superbass 100 or fender '64 deluxes the two cords is simply because I use pedals with those other rigs.
you play the amp with other speaker cabinets? Sounds best to me on old G12Ms, but Scumback M75s are a nice new substitute.
you have siemens el34's and tungsram 12ax7's? I've only had 3 tungsrams back in the early 90s that are pretty weak these days. Most of my recordings are with either EI, old Tungsol, or Sylvanias. Typically Siemens EL34s, but sometimes the new GT EL34Ms. Rarely have I used old Mullard 34s as they seem a bit too bright. Clearer perhaps, but a little too extended on top. In my amps the darn reissue GT34s are almost nicer sounding in regards to the top end. I recently got a set of NOS Nationals that sound VERY nice now that thery are broken it (were a bit fizzy at first) and are probably the same tube as the old Siemens I used on my 1st CD.
do the clones that you built sound also harsh and bright? Just a hair brighter and a hair harsher, but my two clones match my original in this regard more closely than any other clones I've played. They also respond pretty much identically to tube, cords, guitar, bias, and speaker choices.
I hope that ballparks it!
Last edited by geetarpicker on Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wire
I looked at the undocumented wreck, hes useing 600v carol wire for the heaters, which i doubt is solid [hard to see], and useing some leftover transformer clippings,which would be stranded or uni-strand[don't we all use left over clippings].
Those are used in the power supply, and output jacks to the imp. switch. Hes also useing a MF resistor on the input jack.
The output jacks are also not switchcraft,seem to be of a less-er type.
the output transformer has pacific sticker on it. But might be a copy he had made by someone else. This amp is a later one with connections under the board on the power section. Uses the dark screen grid resistors.
The amp also uses a few different color scheme, a dark blue,and green. Which we have seen others useing these colors. Fran used the red,yellow ,blue.
Thats about it, the rest is very similar to other express amps. Allyn has been in an express like this one.
but as for the hookup wire on the pots, and to the tube sockets, its smaller,and solid,and no markings of brand. If he used Carol wire, he could have got hookup wire from them too, which again, would be very similar to other brands of that type. has the same ratings etc.
You can go to Carol wire site,and check out their hookup wire, they have quite a few different kinds,even one that is self extingushing
.065 300v
.095 600v
Those are used in the power supply, and output jacks to the imp. switch. Hes also useing a MF resistor on the input jack.
The output jacks are also not switchcraft,seem to be of a less-er type.
the output transformer has pacific sticker on it. But might be a copy he had made by someone else. This amp is a later one with connections under the board on the power section. Uses the dark screen grid resistors.
The amp also uses a few different color scheme, a dark blue,and green. Which we have seen others useing these colors. Fran used the red,yellow ,blue.
Thats about it, the rest is very similar to other express amps. Allyn has been in an express like this one.
but as for the hookup wire on the pots, and to the tube sockets, its smaller,and solid,and no markings of brand. If he used Carol wire, he could have got hookup wire from them too, which again, would be very similar to other brands of that type. has the same ratings etc.
You can go to Carol wire site,and check out their hookup wire, they have quite a few different kinds,even one that is self extingushing
.065 300v
.095 600v
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geetarpicker
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Re: Wire
Thanks Richie for looking into it!
I'm pretty sure the filaments in my amp use the 20 gauge 600v stranded Carol wire, but I'll have to double check. Yep, I seem to think I never could find any markings on my signal wire and yes it could also be Carol.
My old Mallory 20uf TC75 caps say Aerovox and Mallory on them. All my pots match (are those wire wrap terminal types we've seen in other wrecks) and the pots are all Switchcraft.
I'm pretty sure the filaments in my amp use the 20 gauge 600v stranded Carol wire, but I'll have to double check. Yep, I seem to think I never could find any markings on my signal wire and yes it could also be Carol.
My old Mallory 20uf TC75 caps say Aerovox and Mallory on them. All my pots match (are those wire wrap terminal types we've seen in other wrecks) and the pots are all Switchcraft.
Re: Wire
thanks Glen!! I appreciate your answers....
the "undocumented express" has always makes me curious about a couple things....
that input jack that looks like a Cliff seems strange to me because in that dave Hunter amp book Ken said that he don't like those input jacks for being noisy...and that he didn't want to use them in the komets...seems to me strange that he used them in a express....
Color of wire in the heathers, also the fact that the heathers are wired in phase. If you look at Francesca's heather wiring goes out of phase from v1 to v2 (inverted) and then is inverted again from v3 to v4 to recover phase...strange...isn't it?
I agree with Glen that there's still some misteries but also the way I see it is this...I'm sure every express sounds diferent since diferent components, tubes and transformers were used. So what sound of what amp are we trying to nail?
All this wire thread is great, a question for the cloners.... when you build your clones do you guys make sure the direction of the wire matches the signal? In same dave Hunter book Ken mentioned that wire has a polarity, since I don't know how to figure that out I made sure the wire went in same direction...just in case!! haha anyone else did that?
the "undocumented express" has always makes me curious about a couple things....
that input jack that looks like a Cliff seems strange to me because in that dave Hunter amp book Ken said that he don't like those input jacks for being noisy...and that he didn't want to use them in the komets...seems to me strange that he used them in a express....
Color of wire in the heathers, also the fact that the heathers are wired in phase. If you look at Francesca's heather wiring goes out of phase from v1 to v2 (inverted) and then is inverted again from v3 to v4 to recover phase...strange...isn't it?
I agree with Glen that there's still some misteries but also the way I see it is this...I'm sure every express sounds diferent since diferent components, tubes and transformers were used. So what sound of what amp are we trying to nail?
All this wire thread is great, a question for the cloners.... when you build your clones do you guys make sure the direction of the wire matches the signal? In same dave Hunter book Ken mentioned that wire has a polarity, since I don't know how to figure that out I made sure the wire went in same direction...just in case!! haha anyone else did that?
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Cliff Schecht
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Re: Wire
I see people took my skin effect comment to heart! I was merely stating that unless you're using a gauge that is all 0's then yeah, skin effect would actually hurt you. But that's some thick wire!
Also, I could see why silver-stranded Teflon stranded wire would sound brighter than solid core copper wire, the Teflon stuff is a lower impedance wire that won't attenuate the high's as much. It's funny that even though we are working in the audio frequency, wire parasitics still add up!
Perhaps the different colored wires could also have different parasitics depending on the permeability of the insulator, different colors may have different characteristics. But my intuition tells me that this is not a factor at audio frequencies, even for high voltage signals. There is something else that we are all missing that Ken was doing to tame these amps. Then again, you have to consider that each Express is an entirely different handbuilt amp that Ken had to spend time on to tune to his standards. From my reading about his designs I assume that there are a lot of subtle tricks that he used that he never mentions and we haven't managed to figure out yet. I'm hoping to get started on a more accurate Express clone within the next few months, perhaps I can use this build as a platform for deciphering some of Ken's different tricks. Being a student has it's perks in that I have access to a huge variety of parts (not including my stupidly large home collection) and so I'm hoping to scavenge some "KF approved" parts. Also I'll be attending a Hamfest in Midland, Texas in a month or so where I will also keep an eye out.
Also, I could see why silver-stranded Teflon stranded wire would sound brighter than solid core copper wire, the Teflon stuff is a lower impedance wire that won't attenuate the high's as much. It's funny that even though we are working in the audio frequency, wire parasitics still add up!
Perhaps the different colored wires could also have different parasitics depending on the permeability of the insulator, different colors may have different characteristics. But my intuition tells me that this is not a factor at audio frequencies, even for high voltage signals. There is something else that we are all missing that Ken was doing to tame these amps. Then again, you have to consider that each Express is an entirely different handbuilt amp that Ken had to spend time on to tune to his standards. From my reading about his designs I assume that there are a lot of subtle tricks that he used that he never mentions and we haven't managed to figure out yet. I'm hoping to get started on a more accurate Express clone within the next few months, perhaps I can use this build as a platform for deciphering some of Ken's different tricks. Being a student has it's perks in that I have access to a huge variety of parts (not including my stupidly large home collection) and so I'm hoping to scavenge some "KF approved" parts. Also I'll be attending a Hamfest in Midland, Texas in a month or so where I will also keep an eye out.
Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.