Wire

[M Fowler]

I have now changed my selective hearing to selective reading and its working.

Man I just hate to take out all those old tubes, caps and resistors just because I am suppose to. Are you sure

[dartanion]

Go back and read what you wrote.

Partial quoting won't help you... Please take full sentences and full paragraphs : the context is very important.

As well, subjective testing is not scientific.

More than a hundred years of psychoacoustics, dozens of internationnally accepted subjective testing methodologies demonstrate the contrary. But who am I to argue, huh?

Now you want to argue the definition of Subjectivity? Wow! You really are more afflicted than a severe case of Amusia.

Just so you know, Subjectivity is personal opinion, desires, feelings or beliefs. It is an antonym to objectivity. There is no space for Subjectivity in science. Subjective science is quackery!

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then QUACK QUACK FYL

[rawnster]

I think FYL should have a talk with Rupert Neve and explain his data and opinion on this subject. !!!!!!!!!

Neve! Yeah, some of the best "colored" mic pre's on the market. They're killer on drums! Warm, dark, and juicy.....wait, I can't use those descriptors anymore, darn!

[FYL]

So.. lets try this, do you think useing a polypropolyene .02 [measured]
compared to a polyester .02 will sound the same?

There could be a very slight system-specific difference. But we're dealing with different dielectrics, geometries and technologies - a large number of polyprops are of the bulkier film and foil type while nearly all polyester caps are metalized.

Do you think the mica sound different than the ceramic?

Run of the mill ceramics are very microphonic, they are also far from linear - with a few exceptions. Their sonic signature is quite easily identifiable in double blind tests - some designers use them as part of the voicing process.

Silver mica caps are very linear.

[FYL]

Now you want to argue the definition of Subjectivity? Wow! You really are more afflicted than a severe case of Amusia.

Just so you know, Subjectivity is personal opinion, desires, feelings or beliefs. It is an antonym to objectivity. There is no space for Subjectivity in science. Subjective science is quackery!

Suggested readings:

"Listening Tests-Turning Opinion into Fact

Listening tests of many kinds take place regularly in the audio industry. Most of them lack the necessary psychological and acoustical controls to produce results that are of real significance, yet the course of audio is regularly influenced by opinions derived from such tests. Some familiar and some not so familiar sources of variability in subjective evaluations of sound quality are reviewed, and the standardization of certain basic technical factors currently being chosen in an arbitrary manner is proposed.

Author: Toole, Floyd E.
Affiliation: National Research Council, Ottawa, Ont. K1A OR6, Canada
JAES Volume 30 Issue 6 pp. 431-445; June 1982"

Clark, David L., "High-Resolution Subjective Testing Using a Double-Blind Comparator", Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 30, pp. 330-338

Buchlein, R., "The Audibility of Frequency Response Irregularities", reprinted in English in Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol. 29, pp. 126-131

Moore, Brian C. J., "An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing", 3rd Edition , Academic Press, London

Rock, Irwin, "An Introduction to Perception", Macmillan Publishing Company, New York

Scharf, Bertam, and Reynolds, George S. "Experimental Sensory Psychology", Scott Forseman and Company, Glenview

Oh, and ad hominem attacks totally disqualify you.

[ckpop]

AH FYL if you are a fan of Rupert you know what is really meant from voicing amps without value changes just components

Yes I can understand what you are saying but you can't deny my point of view either.

[rawnster]

Oh, and ad hominem attacks totally disqualify you.

FYL, he's not attacking you, or your character; Darin simply isn't buying what you're selling.

[ckpop]

I Agree FYL it is not attack but I hear more technical data as your arguement which does not relates to a musician, music, amplifier, guitar and the connection that happens between them. You have to put that in with your data beacuse without that your knowledge you can not relate to the human element and make that connection with a player and the amp the minute he starts to play your amp.

Most guitar players can lock into that within 10 or 20 seconds the first time they try an amp. I am able to do that partly by my components I use.

Hey everyone everybody think I'm crazy yet LOL

[Jackie Treehorn]

Howso? Because they're published or because you read the article and have something specific to say on the content?

This is a set of graphs as useful as a PowerPoint presentation by a guy with a tie who's about to try to sell you something you don't need or want.

If these "tests" had any significance, the full protocol would be detailed, the tests peer reviewed and the results published in a reference publication such as the AES Journal.

Obviously you didn't read the article or you'd know where to look for the published results. I had hoped you could address the substance of the article because all you can do is shoot the messenger or complain about the graphs which seem pretty straightforward to me. Interesting that you bring up the AES. What are your thoughts on the article on cables in their library?

How could silver plating have a "sound" ?

How could it not?

You're the one stating that silver plated copper sounds bright, the burnden of proof is on your shoulders...

What burden? The world is full of insulators and conductors which have varying electrical properties. It would be stupid to assume they sound the same.

BTW, PTFE can't easily be extruded atop copper. Every consumer grade PTFE-coated cable uses plated copper.

It's out there.

Then it's not consumer-grade. Care to share with us the actual references of the wire you mention? Is it Axon IBC?

It's not Axon. I bought some of their Litz speaker wire and it was awful; sounded no different than standard 14 gauge zip cord.

I use a lot of Kimber TCSS, but I've also used Cardas for some things. I also use a lot of Mogami and Canare, which is pure copper, but not Teflon.

[Richie]

So.. lets try this, do you think useing a polypropolyene .02 [measured]
compared to a polyester .02 will sound the same?

There could be a very slight system-specific difference. But we're dealing with different dielectrics, geometries and technologies - a large number of polyprops are of the bulkier film and foil type while nearly all polyester caps are metalized.

Do you think the mica sound different than the ceramic?

Run of the mill ceramics are very microphonic, they are also far from linear - with a few exceptions. Their sonic signature is quite easily identifiable in double blind tests - some designers use them as part of the voicing process.

Silver mica caps are very linear.

Then thats what we are getting at, you just said in a round about way, they can have a different sound to them or effect on the outcome of the sound.
So, if you can hear a difference in mica and ceramic in a blind test, changing one or the other might help get what your wanting the amp to sound like.
And ceramics are different too, as old to new micas, many types and specs, as you said run of the mill. yes they are and can be microphonic, others may be more stable. Kind of like tubes,sometimes you just have to pic and try a few.

Sometimes depends on where the cap is used in the circuit, or what its used for. Some caps can sound very good at low volumes,nice and clean, but when the amp is cranked and overdriven, it can sound shrill and harsh on the top end,not smooth. Unpleasent to the ear is about the way i'd describe it. Almost like running your fingers down a chalkboard feeling.


The weird thing is, in guitar amps, sometimes its not the 50 dollar golden vintage mojo cap that makes an amp sound good, it can be what some may call cheap parts or old ceramic disc caps, and many other things like that.

Funny back on the wire, the old fenders used the mostly solid push back wire, they went to stranded in the later years and CBS. Some using the same circuit as BF, some using the CBS stuff.

I know ceriatone has many amp models, ALL that i know of use the teflon wire.

[UR12]

Hey everyone everybody think I'm crazy yet LOL

I thought you were crazy the first time I talked to you but that is a whole other thread. (just kiddin ). Sorry I couldn't help myself..... I'll shut up now and read in amazement to myself. I have a lot of parts to go measure for this current build. The parts aren't even on the board yet and I can just tell by looking at them it's going to sound great.

How would you explain the color red to a blind man?

[ckpop]

Dana LOL I explain Red to the blind man by sticking his hand in fire

Hope all is good

Carl

[ckpop]

Richie I totally agree with you. It is knowning how to apply the different components to get the balance in the pocket.

That is the art and selective hearing I'm talking about when tuning an amp. You can't do it with just technical data alone. Like Dana it is both measurement and part knowning when and where to apply.

[UR12]

Dana LOL I explain Red to the blind man by sticking his hand in fire

Hope all is good

Carl

All is great. Wasn't that the way the cavemen discoverd music in the Caveman movie. You might have something there lol:

[RJ Guitars]

It was interesting reading Ken's paper on wire, especially the part when he was talking about the Komet amps

" ... You can make a very shrill- sounding amp very quickly with Teflon wire, if you’re not careful what you do with the rest of the circuit. So they wanted to use Teflon wire, and I just made the amp so it would sound real good with Teflon wire".

Do we believe that the wire is entirely passive and makes no added contribution to the sound? That is not to say that the wire doesn't attenuate some portion of the signal.

I might guess that he is saying that the solid core filters out the bad stuff while the stranded wire gives you both the bad and the good and somewhere along the way you need to throw away the bad?

I am trying to sort our where the harshness is coming from.

rj