eBay listing

[blaren]

Hey all,
When trying to list a trainwreck clone on eBay, what is allowed and what is not. I know that you cant show any logos or registered trademarks...or say (in the title) "same as, not, good as, better than....." but can we say "Trainwreck" in either the title or description? Can we say trainwreck clone, or copy, or replica, or circuit in the title or description?
I appreciate any "for sure" answers...meaninig, please don't tell me what "should be allowed" only what IS or is NOT allowed. No guesses please.
Thanks

[Lonely Raven]

I guess we'll find out soon, since I'm about to post the last few faceplates and logos I have.

[Structo]

I think the term Tranwreck is coyrighted ( I could be wrong on that) but what you could do is a variation of the word like Traincrash or similar.
Then carefully describe the amp skirting around the legal issues.

[gearhead]

Trainwreck is a Trademark; registered with the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO).

If you're curious:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f= ... nku7l2.2.8

The current "operator" of the Trainwreck website (Steve something) has informed ebay that "Trainwreck" is an active Trademark, and they will enforce it.

I have some ideas on what "should" pass through the ebay net, but you said you don't want those.

[dartanion]

You can say "Like a Wreck" and people will know what you mean. You can say it is a Liverpool, but not an Express. Express is TM by Randall Smith/Mesa. You can name the amp that the layout was copied from, and you can say Ken Fisher. You can say whatever you want without using TrainWreck in direct reference to that item.

[jjman]

People use trademarked phrases in the Title and description of ebay listings all the time, when they are not that item. For example, people selling a small single ended combo amp often put "champ" and/or "fender" in the title, usually at the end of the title. Whether this is legal, illegal, an ebay violation, or not I don't know. Much of this is fuzzy and subject to who has the better lawyer.

I think that a phrase like “similar to a Trainwreck” or “better than a Fender Stratocaster” in the title and/or description would be completely legal. The root of some of these laws is whether or not there is any deception or whether confusion is likely. If you ask Fender, I’ve read that their position is that there is no such thing as a “Telecaster like guitar.” Of course they take an extreme position since it’s their business that suffers if someone sells a guitar that is passed off as a Fender.

If you are not deceptive and do not cause confusion you should be fine.

[blaren]

Thanks for the replies so far. It's funny...you CAN'T say "like a... or better than a...."
I know ...they shut down one of my listings recently cause I said (in the title) .018uF mustards were like .022uF mustards. They removed it...you can NOT say those words in the title but you can in the description.
Now THAT's f^$%ed-up!

[declan]

ebay and paypal are basically a law onto themselves, if one of their agents doesnt like something about your advert they will pull it with no explanation.

I think the best advice which has already been given is avoid saying anything that could be considered deceptive and your conscience will be clear.

Just never leave any significant money in your paypal account as if the wind blows the wrong direction or someone complains about a sale they will freeze your account.

There is a lot of debate whether many of ebay/paypal practices are even legal in many countries, so doing business with them is really dancing with the devil. Like most others I take my chances with them occasionally and have managed to avoid incidents.

Good luck with your sale

[rfgordon]

The Trainwreck website guy is fibbing to ebay--he is not, in fact, the owner of record of the Trainwreck logo. Ken Fischer is. You can search www.uspto.gov and see.

A trademark is not property or equity, so it cannot be bequeathed, so even if Ken had put it in his will (which is highly unlikely) it would be meaningless.

The other issue is one of active use. There is no Trainwreck product line, so even if the guy owned the trademark (which is the curved logo--NOT the word), he would fail in court to obtain even a cease and desist order. Why? Because there is no ongoing enterprise generating income for him. Therefore, another's use of the logo cannot be shown to meet the legal burden of impeding his earning revenue from the recognition and goodwill associated in the appropriate market for the trademark.

Ebay cooperates because they are ignorant weenies. Hmmm, what if every TAG member emailed the guy and asked for his proof of trademark ownership? I'm guessing there'd be lots of unanswered emails.

Having said all that, I wouldn't advocate using the trademark. However, if I wanted to sell "Trainwreck" amps, I would file for ownership of the trademark. The USPTO would respond by saying it was a live mark owned by Ken Fischer. I'd appeal stating that Mr. Fischer was, in fact, deceased. Once they confirmed that, my application, in all likelihood, would be approved, and they'd cash my check.

But, trademarking is expensive, something like $375 last time I looked, so it's not an endeavor to be done on a whim, unless you've got lots of extra lunch money lying around.

[CaseyJones]

Trademarking is expensive, something like $375 last time I looked, so it's not an endeavor to be done on a whim, unless you've got lots of extra lunch money lying around.

Don't give anyone any ideas. Like Mullard or Tung-Sol if the name is ripe for the pickin' someone will step up to the line.

Why not just use Two Rock?

[bnwitt]

The Trainwreck website guy is fibbing to ebay--he is not, in fact, the owner of record of the Trainwreck logo. Ken Fischer is. You can search www.uspto.gov and see.

A trademark is not property or equity, so it cannot be bequeathed, so even if Ken had put it in his will (which is highly unlikely) it would be meaningless.

The other issue is one of active use. There is no Trainwreck product line, so even if the guy owned the trademark (which is the curved logo--NOT the word), he would fail in court to obtain even a cease and desist order. Why? Because there is no ongoing enterprise generating income for him. Therefore, another's use of the logo cannot be shown to meet the legal burden of impeding his earning revenue from the recognition and goodwill associated in the appropriate market for the trademark.

Ebay cooperates because they are ignorant weenies. Hmmm, what if every TAG member emailed the guy and asked for his proof of trademark ownership? I'm guessing there'd be lots of unanswered emails.

Having said all that, I wouldn't advocate using the trademark. However, if I wanted to sell "Trainwreck" amps, I would file for ownership of the trademark. The USPTO would respond by saying it was a live mark owned by Ken Fischer. I'd appeal stating that Mr. Fischer was, in fact, deceased. Once they confirmed that, my application, in all likelihood, would be approved, and they'd cash my check.

But, trademarking is expensive, something like $375 last time I looked, so it's not an endeavor to be done on a whim, unless you've got lots of extra lunch money lying around.

Yeah what he said. The guy buzzing ebay stopping auctions which clearly state that what is for sale is not a trainwreck but based on a trainwreck circuit is a sad little man who needs to get a life. He is also a baldface liar who tells ebay he is the holder of the trademark. Scuzzy little troll if you ask me.