Introduction + Liverpool PT question(s).

[mark norwine]

Hello to all!

I’m glad to have discovered this forum. My friend Andy Fuchs told me that “this was the place to be”, so here I am...but first, allow me to introduce myself.

I’m Mark Norwine, 52, from New Jersey, and I’ve been playing guitar since childhood. I’ve repaired & modded amps since I was 20, and started scratch-designing amps when I was about 30. Although I no longer offer repair services to the general public, I did so for many years. I’ve been inside literally thousands of amps of all makes & models....Trainwrecks included.

Back in the early days of the “boutique craze” I turned some of my designs into a company....Carlson Amplification, Inc. ....and I made / sold my share of amps. It was a busy time, but it never quite grew to be big enough to shuck off the day gig, so around ’04, I bagged it.

But I still love amps, and I still make one now & then.....which leads me to the “here & now”: I’m thinking about building a Liverpool.

I’m a frequent participant of TheGearPage, but the very mention of the word “Trainwreck” brings on an onslaught. Frankly, over there, the S:N ratio is way, way too high to engage in meaningful, technical dialog. Asking questions over there is not the thing to do!

Andy suggested that I read this forum for better info, and for the last 24 hours I’ve done just that.

My biggest question surrounds the selection of power transformer, and at the risk of entering this forum like a “bull in a china shop” I need to say that I’m not finding any *complete* specs here on this forum. Partial specs, yes. Complete specs....no.

Many folks seem to be using HTS-5199 (11410-TWPT), but that PT seems questionable to my mind:

- The 300V tap isn’t needed at all
- The 6V winding is 7.5A….only 4A is needed
- The 5V winding isn’t needed at all.

Since Heyboer winds to order, why have them make a PT with so much unnecessary capacity / capability? Does anyone offer a more-Liverpool-specific PT?

I’m happy to call up Heyboer and have a custom PT made (I know them from my amp company days….they made my Turbo-Pup PT’s), but if something is readily available, I’m all ears!

I’m also interested to know if anyone has done a complete, full VA curve plot of a Liverpool-appropriate PT. By that I mean: at least 2 plot points on a graph (Vac @ 0mA *AND* Vac @ “X” mA full load) so that full regulation can be studied [actually, more than 2 points would be great]. It seems to me that the specs that I’ve found are woefully incomplete, from a design POV. Does anyone have the complete VA curve specs?

Anyway, I’m sure glad to have found this place, and I’m appreciative for any info you can provide.

Best regards,

mn

[Structo]

There are a couple guys here that sell parts for the TW line, someone will tell you.
I'm afraid I will spell them wrong.

[dartanion]

The 5199 is a clone PT for TWs that covers all bases. Keeps things simple for the builder. I am pretty sure that Heyboer would supply you with the VA curves.

You can also consider the Pacific sets.

[mark norwine]

The 5199 is a clone PT for TWs that covers all bases.

What TW needs a 7.5A filament winding?

You can also consider the Pacific sets.

Tell me more, please!

I'm making a few assumptions here, and in doing so it is NOT my intention to come off sounding arrogant....

...but with that said: does the Heyboer "do the job" [for a Liverpool] more (or less?) accurately than the Pacific?

Since the VA curves don't seem to be published anywhere, one is left to believe that the Heyboer specs simply have to be different than the Pacific, insofar as the odds of them being identical are about a billion to one. Different specs = different amp dynamics. It’s unavoidable.

Maybe it’s “the designer in me” that needs to know these things, but I’d like my Liverpool build to be as close to my own personal, real-life Liverpool experiences [a good friend of mine had one until his untimely passing], and I feel like I’m grasping for clouds in the absence of any real specs.

[mlp-mx6]

Welcome, Mark!

Michael

[M Fowler]

The problem is the history of Trainwreck and the fact that Ken used many different brands of transformers, such as Stancor in addition to others and some argue that Heyboer was never used? Who knows.

The catch all Heyboers, Pacifics and Edcors are now offered and used to ease builders in their projects without the need to search for Stancor ebay transformers.

Mark

[mark norwine]

OK......lack of published / available specs notwithstanding, has the general population of "Wreck cloaners" found the offerings of Heyboer, Pacific and Edcor to be:

a.) close enough to each other as to be interchangeable without making amps that are dissimilar sounding and,

b.) able to make clones that are as reasonably close to "the real thing" as is possible?

Or is one preferred?

Am I correct to assume that *ALL* of these 3 companies' products have 1.) dual-tap HT windings, 2.) 5V windings and 3.) over-capacity 6V windings? Or does one of them offer what I'd prefer [based on my first post]?

mn

[jaysg]

hmm...I thought the PT was based on KF's line card...both Heyboer and Pacific. Over-capacity is supposed to be the hallmark of his approach to iron...I thought.

Please describe your impressions of the original Liverpool you've played. What guitars did it seem to favor...that sort of stuff.

[mark norwine]

"over capacity"....without a discussion of what spec is being enhanced....is so broad of a term as to be meaningless.

In terms of Kenny's mindset, I'm pretty sure that we're talking about a current capacity upwards of 300mA so that the B+, during moments of high current demand, won't drop down.

I should perhaps make note: I do NOT presume to know Kenny’s design intentions; to imply such is wrong. However, we did know each other [though not well] and we did talk about design parameters, etc. We were both aware of each other’s “amp doings” and did, indeed, discuss VA curves & importance thereof on at least one occasion that I can recall.

That's *exactly* what a VA curve is all about and is the very cornerstone of amp design. Thus my line of questions.

By contrast, over capacity, in terms of the 6V filament winding is pointless......and can actually be harmful. The winding delivers 6V at rated current, but if you draw less, the voltage can actually rise, which is [long term] harmful to the tubes' lifespan. If you need 4A of filament current, best to spec a PT that delivers 4A. 5A maybe. 7.5A strikes me as too high.

But, again, this has to do with tube filament longevity....not amp performance, tone dynamics, etc.

As for my “Liverpool experiences”, I played...on several occasions...a Liverpool that belonged to a good friend of mine. Sadly, this friend has passed on and the amp is now in Nashville, owned by someone else

[jaysg]

uh...thanks...I guess.

[mark norwine]

I draw from that response that I didn't answer your question.

What would you like to know?

[M Fowler]

hmm...I thought the PT was based on KF's line card...both Heyboer and Pacific. Over-capacity is supposed to be the hallmark of his approach to iron...I thought.

It is said that Ken never used Heyboer, not that I would know and that yes there was a line card but perhaps not for any of the three major TW players Express, Liverpool and Rocket. Perhaps the songwriter?

If your going to build a kick ass amp selecting the 300mA over the 180-200mA commonly found in 300-0-300 or 280-0-280 PTs would make sense. As far as over rating the 6v taps not sure why. The OT is rated for 50w not 30w 3k3 for express and 5k2 for Liverpool.

Smarter then me are on this forum and probably will be chiming in at any moment be patient this topic has been discussed so many times.

Mark

[jaysg]

What would you like to know?

Please describe your impressions of the original Liverpool you've played. What guitars did it seem to favor? How much bass was available? How much headroom compared to a BF Deluxe Reverb or any other baseline? Any unpleasantness to the amp's distortion in the midrange or high end? Do you recall what tubes (brands & types) were installed? Which settings did you and your friend prefer for the Bright switch?

[mark norwine]

M. Fowler: That 300mA was a misprint on my part. Should read "200mA". Sorry for the confusion. I am NOT looking to build a 300mA power supply.

jaysg: I'm a 335 guy; my buddy Bernie was a strat guy. It's been quite a number of years since I played that amp, but I recall thick, chewy distortions with rich harmonic overtones. Backing off the guitar's volume cleaned things up, but never really making it a "clean machine".

My memories say it was a "one trick pony", but oh how glorious that "one trick" was!

It was nothing at all like a BFDR.

As for tubes, etc. I have no knowledge

[funkmeblue]

In 1991 Ken built a rocket named Dinah that had a hebour power transformer. I'm guessing that is where that line card came from. Kenny also mentioned in Dave hunter's book that two rock had gotten ahold of his line card from Pacific by mistake. The pacific set is what is thought to be used for both the later express and liverpool. A lot of great amps have been built here with these transformers and I haven't heard any complaints about heater voltages. Kenny also mentions in the same interview that heybour used the wrong line card, something about a hi-fi amp he was working on, I kinda think that's bull shit and that like card was for the rocket with it's hi-fi output dynaco copy changed to 5.2k primary. Hence the "firs" output we really had availble......even mojo tone carried it. No one seems to know the original maker of the power transformers, but stancor made most of. the outputs